Hearthstone Heritage II Rebuild

[Gooserider]

Really? I don't see how one would do that! It's stone all the way across the back, etc? I don't think I saw anything in the manual indicating that switching it was a possibility, and it looks like you'd have to rebuild it or something?

I don't have pictures of mine right now, but there's one on ebay right now that is pretty much identical to mine -

(broken link removed to http://cgi.ebay.com/Hearthstone-2-Wood-Stove_W0QQitemZ300210560381QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item300210560381)

Well it may just be the modern Hearthstones, but I know that on at least some of their models there are a set of bolts inside the flue connector that come undone, and the connector comes out, and the same thing happens with the top center block of stone in the back, and you then swap the two peices, or at least that is my understanding from others - I haven't played with one so I'm not certain it applies to that model.

It is also worth noting that the Heritage II is generally considered one of the less desirable models - it is an older unit that does not have the same clean burning characteristics as the later models. Among other things the secondary combustion design was an early effort that is harder to get lit off, or keep lit. As a result the stove tends to be more of a "wood hog" than some of the later EPA phase II approved models, and will put out more smoke. In addition the window in the front door is smaller than the later models, giving less of a view of the fire, and because it lacks the later model's "air wash" system, it tends to soot up quickly.

However they do sell frequently for amazingly high prices on E-bay, so somebody must really love them... However it is a stove that I would hesitate to put a lot of money / labor into fixing.

Gooserider

 

[Beanscoot]

Honest, you can have the pipe come out the back. But now when I went to look at mine I see you are right in that it needs some rebuilding to achieve this.

I will attempt to post an image of my stove here, this will be the first image I post if successful.

Well I tried but the file size is too big. Dang computers! The picture is 363 kb, but the limit is 350. Anyhow, the top of my stove has three similar stone pieces while the back has the pipe outlet and about a 1-1/2" tall piece of stone below it.

So you will need to buy two stone pieces and do a bit of rebuilding to switch over.

 

[tickbitty]

Huh, that's pretty interesting! Good to know, but like I say, we're not necessarily the handiest and if we gotta get a major overhaul on it it might start to exceed what we want to put into it, know what I mean.

Thanks to both of you for the input and I'll be thinking on it. Like you said, it's not the most desirable stove out there being over 20 years old, but there's no way in heck I could afford the 3000 or so to get a new one installed so I was pretty excited at the prospect of this pretty stone one. We'll never approach it otherwise! Paying just $150 for the stove left a fair amount in play for install.

I have seen them go for a lot on ebay but lately (and it is spring after all) they have cooled, about $400 looks like what they are going for. That's still a tidy profit so I will look to spruce the one I have up and if I can't figure out how to use it in my house by converting it pretty easily) then I will consider putting that money toward a newer stove (or like, buy groceries and pay for daycare....) In the meantime though those electric and oil bills are $ky high!

 

[fred wark]

TICKBITTY Yes, you really should have someone who knows what they are doing install that stove. It should have a full length stainless steel liner with a positive connection to the stove and proper mounting at the top of the chimney. Years ago it was considered to be state of the art to slide a stove into the firebox, run a short length of black pipe through the damper up into the smoke chamberr, and close off the rest of the area around the pipe with fiberglass insulation. If you install it like this, you are asking for all sorts of problems such as the creation of excess creosote,including a type that is very difficult if not impossible to remove. When it come time to clean the flue, the stove will have to be pulled out of the firebox. This is not fun. Have someone install a proper liner. It will probably cost much more then what you paid for the stove. If it is done properly, you should be able to clean the flue out very easily yourself, if you can get up onto the roof. All you should have to do is push a 6 inch diameter brush down from the top. Everything should fall directly into the stove. Be sure to have some sort of cleanout tee installed directly on top of the stove, so that you can clean all the creosote off the top of the baffle without taking the SS pipe apart. Look at http://csia.org or http://ncsg.org for more info, and leads to qualified installers.
Fred Wark

 

[tickbitty]

Fred, thank you so much for the links and info. I figured we would need a full liner but didn't really know WHY, and that's good to know and keep in mind whether we end up using this stove or another one. I did figure on the install costing us some, and that's OK, especially if we get a stove for something reasonable or can use this one. Thanks much for the cleanout information especially - I am going to keep it on file!

 

[Gooserider]

Mostly I agree with Fred, although it IS definitely possible to do a DIY install of the liner and / or stove depending on your (or your S.O.'s) comfort and skill level with doing home repair projects, and the access to your roof - you said it was a single story house, with an inside chimney, so it is probably a fairly low slope roof, which makes things much easier...

If you read a few stove manuals, and the threads here, plus some of the Wiki articles, you will see that there is nothing terribly arcane about doing a stove install, it's mostly muscle and basic tool type skills, and if you are the sort of people that are reasonably handy, the folks here can talk you through pretty much everything you need to do in order to make a safe and efficient install. Even if you do get it done by a pro, I would HIGHLY advise reading a good bit about how to do a really good install, as a lot of the discussions here suggest that many sweeps like to skip important details, or claim they aren't needed - so you need to know what to DEMAND in the way of workmanship.

For instance, many sweeps will try to talk you out of installing a sheet metal blockoff plate at the bottom of your flue, or try to Mickey Mouse it by shoving fiberglass up around the liner... There are a few reasons, none of them really good, but a blockoff is less critical for those looking for an "ambiance" install as opposed to a "heating" install - if all you want is pretty it's easy not to care if you don't get a lot of heat, but if you want heating, you NEED the blockoff plate. The other factor I suspect is that doing a good blockoff plate IS a fair amount of extra work, and can be a definite PITA - the sort of job that many would just as soon not do... There are other places where some non-perfectionists might be inclined to cut corners if you don't know what to watch for.

I'm not quite sure what Fred was referring to when he said to put a cleanout tee on top of the stove, it usually isn't required if you set the stove up properly for cleaning (many will require that you remove some or all of the internal bits first, so that the debris can drop into the stove firebox itself.) The exact procedures for cleaning will vary slightly from stove to stove, and some are easier than others, check the manuals. Rear exit stoves tend to be a bit easier as you pretty much have to use a tee in order to make the bend between the stove exit and the liner, in which case there is a cap on the other leg of the tee, and the big challenge can be to reach the cap and remove it, but the debris goes straight down the liner and out the bottom of the tee (once the cap is removed) leaving just a little stretch of snout and maybe a short pipe to get to the stove, and those are normally pretty clean anyway.

One item that I have found (the hard way), but many don't mention, is that there are two styles of tee - solid one peice units, and ones with removeable snouts. The removable snout tees are needed if you are putting in a liner where you make the connection to the stove by going through a hole in the chimney, and can't get a right angled part down the flue. However if the tee will be installed in the open where it is possible to use a one peice unit, you should do so, and NOT use a removable snout tee, as they don't seal up as tightly, and you want the only air entering the flue to be going through the stove first.

It also isn't always necessary to get up on the roof to clean - I clean from the bottom because it is next to impossible to reach the top of my chimney, it's just a question of which way you push the brush.

Gooserider

 

[fred wark]

GOOSERIDER I suggest the installation of the TEE because it is usually easier to get into the TEE then it is to reach above the baffle from the front opening of the stove. Of course this is assuming that the cleanout cap of the TEE can be reached . It will be above the stove, and probably also be above, and behind the lintel. Ideally, for ease of maintanance, it would be located above the stove, below the lintel, with the cleanout facing in, towards the room, but most people might find this to be unsightly.
I agree that the area between the pipe and the rest of the damper opening should be closed off for heat concerns. Usually I find that a loose layer of fiberglass (with paper backing removed) is adequate. This can easily be removed during flue cleaning for visual inspection of the pipe in the smoke chamber area. Of course that pipe should be stainless steel, and there should not be anything going wrong with it. The insulation will have a tendancy to fall out, and will have to be pushed back up into the smoke chamber occassionally.
Make sure the pipe is supported at the top of the flue with a proper top plate and clamp assembly. You do not want all the weight of this liner pipe to be resting on the stove.
If the house is one story, hopefully the flue will go straight up. If the fireplace is in a lower level, with another fireplace directly above, the flue will possibly have at least one offset. This complicates the installation process. It involves the use of flexible pipe. Sometimes the pipes will not flex enough to go around serious enough offsets.
A proper installation will probably require the removal of the fireplace damper, the damper frame, and some firebrick near the top of the firebox. Do not let your installer 'ovalize' (commonly done by stepping on it and squashing it to get it from a round shape to an oval as it goes thru the damper frame) the pipe to get it through the damper opening. The pipe must stay in its original shape so that it can be properly mated onto the next piece of pipe. Make sure all sections of pipe are secured to each other with proper SS fastners such as screws or poprivets. Most of the better SS pipe now comes from the factory with the proper fastners.
There is a lot of debate as to whether or not the liner should be insulated during installation. Sometimes it is not needed, in other situations it is extremely benefical.
Fred

 

[Gooserider]

GOOSERIDER I suggest the installation of the TEE because it is usually easier to get into the TEE then it is to reach above the baffle from the front opening of the stove. Of course this is assuming that the cleanout cap of the TEE can be reached . It will be above the stove, and probably also be above, and behind the lintel. Ideally, for ease of maintanance, it would be located above the stove, below the lintel, with the cleanout facing in, towards the room, but most people might find this to be unsightly.

Depends on the stove... This is a discussion that has happened many times - seems that MOST (not all) top exit stoves are designed so that it's possible to remove enough of the secondary combustion guts to allow the debris to fall into the firebox, or otherwise easily get to and remove the debris from inside the stove and in that case the tee wouldn't be needed. Ditto for rear exit stoves because you will have a tee on the back of the stove, and it gives the cleanout function - usually there won't be any buildup on the short section between the stove and the tee since that section is hot enough to keep most creosote from building up, and burn off that which does.

I agree that the area between the pipe and the rest of the damper opening should be closed off for heat concerns. Usually I find that a loose layer of fiberglass (with paper backing removed) is adequate. This can easily be removed during flue cleaning for visual inspection of the pipe in the smoke chamber area. Of course that pipe should be stainless steel, and there should not be anything going wrong with it. The insulation will have a tendancy to fall out, and will have to be pushed back up into the smoke chamber occassionally.

MAJOR DISAGREEMENT ON THIS!

1. It is UNSAFE and a complete code violation! Standard house fiberglass is only good for about 600*, it is not rated for the temperature that a stove pipe / liner can reach, and is a potential fire hazard. (Mineral wool / rock wool insulation would be safe in this regard.)

2. It is NOT EFFECTIVE! Fiberglass (especially a loose layer) is NOT intended to stop air flow, and won't. The primary function of a blockoff plate is to STOP heated air from rising up the chimney between the liner and the existing flue, or prevent cold air from descending. You want to completely isolate the air in the chimney from the house interior, and fiberglass does NOT accomplish this. Fiberglass is one the "Mickey Mouse" techniques I mentioned earlier that should be considered an unacceptable practice. If you do a search on blockoff plates, you will find MANY threads where a customer had a stove installed, and a blockoff plate was not put in, and the customer came here complaining about not getting the heat he was expecting. When we got the customer to install a METAL blockoff plate, suddenly the problem dissapeared. Lack of a blockoff plate is probably our number one install related problem.

3. As you stated it falls out - this is not acceptable, especially since it can be difficult to put back in working around a hot stove, or the glass could land on the stove creating an even bigger fire hazard.

We do suggest that, especially in an exterior chimney, it can be helpful to put a layer of rock wool into the space above the blockoff plate to help prevent any possible convection losses, but it is definitely an optional thing, falls in the "overkill" department, but if the installer has extra insulation left over, it certainly does no harm and is a good way to use it up. The critical thing is that the metal plate be a tight seal around both the liner and the chimney flue or damper area where it's installed.

Make sure the pipe is supported at the top of the flue with a proper top plate and clamp assembly. You do not want all the weight of this liner pipe to be resting on the stove.
If the house is one story, hopefully the flue will go straight up. If the fireplace is in a lower level, with another fireplace directly above, the flue will possibly have at least one offset. This complicates the installation process. It involves the use of flexible pipe. Sometimes the pipes will not flex enough to go around serious enough offsets.

Very true, offsets can be a major headache. In a straight shot chimney, it can be possible to use either rigid or flex pipe, the rigid is maybe a little better but it tends to cost more, and the flex is quite acceptable. A combination approach can also be very effective - rigid for most of the way, but use 5-10' of flex on the bottom end to get around the damper and smoke shelf.

(to be continued)

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Continued

A proper installation will probably require the removal of the fireplace damper, the damper frame, and some firebrick near the top of the firebox. Do not let your installer 'ovalize' (commonly done by stepping on it and squashing it to get it from a round shape to an oval as it goes thru the damper frame) the pipe to get it through the damper opening. The pipe must stay in its original shape so that it can be properly mated onto the next piece of pipe. Make sure all sections of pipe are secured to each other with proper SS fastners such as screws or poprivets. Most of the better SS pipe now comes from the factory with the proper fastners.

Minor disagreement - it is generally NOT a good idea to remove bricks - though it can be done as long as doing so doesn't compromise the integrity of the fireplace box, or cause there to be an inadequate amount of masonry remaining between the flue and any adjacent wood framing. The damper parts certainly may need to be removed or cut out. (Minor note, if the fireplace is altered this way it is important to attach a label to the inside of the firebox warning that it has been modified and that it should no longer be used as a conventional fireplace)

Ovalizing the pipe a small amount (no more than about an inch or two) for a short distance to get past a damper frame is not a big problem, and does no harm, indeed many of the online liner distributors will even ovalize the end of the liner for you as part of your order - it then just requires that you either use an adapter, or squish the pipe back to the original shape in order to finish connecting to the next section.

There is a lot of debate as to whether or not the liner should be insulated during installation. Sometimes it is not needed, in other situations it is extremely benefical.
Fred

General rule on insulating the liner is that it is ALWAYS needed if the chimney isn't clay lined, in good repair, and otherwise NFPA standards compliant - the insulation is needed to bring the install up to code. If the chimney is NFPA compliant and you are just trying to reduce the cross section area, it is optional, but a good idea in most cases, certainly it will never hurt to insulate.

The colder the climate, the more insulation will help, especially if dealing with an exterior chimney, or one known to have draft issues. In the case of an interior chimney, it is less critical, and can even be done only partially as the area that most benefits from insulation is the top that is passing outside the home's heating envelope.

Gooserider

 

[fred wark]

I just removed the back plate and the side plate assemblies from the stove. It was not as bad as I thought it would be. I did not have to remove the top. The rear panel came out through the side door. The front panel had to come out through the front door. The biggest problem is depending on how distorted these pieces are, the more difficult it is to get a good grip on the heads of the 7/16 bolts. You have to be careful not to round off the flats, otherwise you will have a very hard time.
The two bottom bolts on the side panel, and the right hand side bolt (not the door side) of the rear panel, have lock nuts beneath the bottom of the outside of the stove. Remove the front door so you can reach in and around easier. Depending on the amount of distortion , you should be able to get the box end of a wrench on the top of the bolts. Let your 2nd wrench, jam up against something on the inside as you turn the nut from underneath. Whatever you are ever removing, it is usually best to spin the nut, not the bolt. The nuts on my stove are lock nuts. It took a bit more then the usuall amount of torque to spin them. I believe that they are stainless. The stove is 25 years old and other then the locking feature, they spun off very easily without having to heat them with a torch or applying penetrating oil. There was no rust or corrosion. The upper bolt is threaded into the rear panel. It was difficult to get a good grip on this bolt because of the distortion of both the bolt(it was bent) and the panel. By moving it slowely in both directions, a little bit at a time, it eventually came out. I did have to hold my wrench in some awkward positions for a few turns, until it was out far enough to get a good grip.
The bottom right (towards the side panel) bolt of the rear panel also has a nut underneath. The bottom left (towards the side door) bolt is threaded into a threaded hole in the bottom of the stove. This is the one bolt you do not want to have problems with. Be careful not to mess up the threads in the bottom of the stove. Again, this bolt was bent, and the panel was bent making it difficult to get a good grip with the wrench. A little bit at a time, it also unthreaded easily. When I install the new parts, I will use a new SS bolt, and oil this hole and run the bolt in and out a few times bofore installing the panel.
Before doing any of this be sure to clean the stove out as much as possible. Once the bolts are out, wiggle the panels around to loosen up all the ashes behind the panels. This compacted ash will keep the panels from being removed. Keep working the ash and the panels out at the same time. This ash is very hard on your skin. They used to make Lye out of wood ash. Wash it off asap and put some sort of skin lotion on your hands when you are done.
The baffle and damper on my stove are still in good shape. I am not changing them. I do not know if they can be changed without removing the top of the stove.
I saw some discussion on this forum about top or rear vents on this Model II. A recent parts list from hearthstone shows both options. It also says that several parts ( for both venting options) are no longer available. Check with your dealer before taking your stove apart and make sure you can get what you need.
Now for the hardest part of this project. I have to call and order, and pay for these parts. It is still cheaper then a new stove though. Total time for removal of these two panels was just under 2 hours. I hope this info helps.
Fred

 

[fred wark]

I dont know if anyone is still looking at this site,and trying to fix their stove, but I finally recieved the side and rear panels and installed them. Both pieces cost me $300. It was pretty simple to instal them. The biggest problem was that I had to drill a hole in the rear panel at the spot where the side panel bolts onto it. The original panel had a hole in it already. This is not true on the replacement panels. You have to drill it yourself. It is not hard to drill. Just put your drill bit between the notches in the side panel and drill away. The big problen is that the directions tell you to drill a 1/4" hole. The panel comes supplied with a 1/4'-20 x 1 1/4' T-Cut bolt. That bolt is supposed to cut its own threads into the sides of the hole you just drilled. You need to drill a hole that is slightly smaller then 1/4" so that there will still be some metal for the bolt to cut into. I drilled the 1/4' hole and the bolt just dropped through it. I had to go to a hardware store and get a slightly larger self tapping bolt. I plan on contacting Hearthstone about this problem. One question I do have, is that the installation instructions do not mention how tight I should make these bolts and nuts. I wonder if i should leave them a bit loose in order to allow for expansion annd contraction of these panels. Any suggestions?

Fred Wark

 

[Wood Pirate]

My father purchased a Hearthstone II in I think 1980 or 1981. We burned it all winter growing up. Excellent stove. I just recently took it out of his house prior to him putting the house on the market and moved the stove to its new home in our hunting camp up state.
I gave my old crappy stove that was in the camp away. What a difference with the Hearthstone in the frigid cold Catskills Mountains in the middle of January.
A+ little stove especially for the price.