Harman now STRONGLY recommends Outside Air

[MountainStoveGuy]

I was going over a enviro fire pellet manual this morning, and they also "Strongly Recommend" OAK. I really enjoyed Mike's post. Thank you.

 

[tinkabranc]

Hmmm...sounds to me like this type of revision to the manuals where an OAK
is now "strongly recommended" and/or "required" could create a loophole for HHT to
get out of some warranty issues.

..."well sir, you are SOL now on your issue because you do not have an OAK installed
on your stove and the new manual states it is required."...


This may not be their intent of course, but I work with contract provisions every day and
this was my first thought.

 

[watrskir]

Hmmm...sounds to me like this type of revision to the manuals where an OAK
is now "strongly recommended" and/or "required" could create a loophole for HHT to
get out of some warranty issues.

..."well sir, you are SOL now on your issue because you do not have an OAK installed
on your stove and the new manual states it is required."...


This may not be their intent of course, but I work with contract provisions every day and
this was my first thought.

unless my older manual doesnt say that.......hmm where did I put it??

 

[stoveguy2esw]

quoted from stoveguy...."i'd be remiss if i didnt mention that a well maintained frequently cleaned unit is less likely still to suffer this malady (gasket maintenance folks!)"




Sorry I probably should have started a new thread on this but what is required for gasket maintanance on a stove besides vacuuming of the ashes
still havent figure out how to properly quote someones comments

gaskets , such as the door and window , and hopper lid if equipped, are wear items. they erode with time and exposure to the heat of operation , and should be replaced before they are no longer sealing properly. frequest inspections of these gaskets and replacement when they show signs of wear is what i was referring to in my earlier post. gaskets are used when a manufacturer does not intend airflow. if these gaskets wear out and airflow is present, the unit may not then function as the manufacturer intended

 

[tinkabranc]

unless my older manual doesnt say that.......hmm where did I put it??

My old manuals do not state that either, but their argument could be you should be following
the latest revision available for your model.

The manuals have revision numbers on them, but none have any type of date of when they
were revised.

 

[Tom Pencil]

Now that they reccomend having an OAK how hard will it be for those who do not have one installed. When I bought mine salesman said that OAK was an option not required. That sounded good enough for me. Now I am rethinking. This winter will be my 5th with my harman insert. Had to go through 18" of brick to get the exhaust outside. Will the frame for the insert need to be removed then reinstalled to put the OAK in?

 

[tjnamtiw]

From my earlier post, does anyone use an OAK up their chimney for an insert? I'll ask the same question over on iburncorn.

I also have an insert, in a chimney, in the center of the house and think it will be difficult to vent through the cimney. I guess an otion would be to go down the ash cleanout in the fireplace to the basement and out a wall?? But i believe the ait intake on my quad classic bay is on the right side closer to the front. How would I attach an oak and run it to the back of the stove down my cleanout and to an outside location and have it look decent??[/quote]

You just sparked a thought with my Sante Fe in my little fireplace opening. There's about 1" of clearance on either side of the stove so unless the air intake for the combustion is on the back, I'm screwed. Even then, there's probably only a couple of inches in the back. it was a TIGHT fit on that one.

 

[THE ROOSTER]

I have the OAK on my Harman Accentra, I used to have a Whitfield without the kit, and I can tell a difference in with/without... Actually the OAK used to be the exhaust for the Whitfield, I got lucky that everything matched up...
I highly recommend the kit...

 

[flashbang]

From the manual:

"The outside air connection will supply the demands of the pellet appliance, but consideration must be given to the total house demand. House demand may consume some air needed for the stove, especially
during a power failure. It may be necessary to add additional ventilation to the space in which the pellet appliance is located. Consult with your local
HVAC professional to determine the ventilation demands for your house."

WTF is this all about?
Put a pipe to the outside for combustion air, but that may not be enough?

The Lifetime warrenty is a joke, actually it is the best joke in the industry.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

From the manual:

"The outside air connection will supply the demands of the pellet appliance, but consideration must be given to the total house demand. House demand may consume some air needed for the stove, especially
during a power failure. It may be necessary to add additional ventilation to the space in which the pellet appliance is located. Consult with your local
HVAC professional to determine the ventilation demands for your house."

WTF is this all about?
Put a pipe to the outside for combustion air, but that may not be enough?

The Lifetime warrenty is a joke, actually it is the best joke in the industry.

in some cases during a power outage while the stove is running (even with the OAK) other devices like i mentioned in the post earlier could already have the house in a negative pressure state. now , if the stove and venting system is completely airtight there is little chance of smoke release in the home, however if the unit has an "indirect" intake connection (i have seen stoves with a pipe to attach the OAK to that is not sealed on the inside to the combustion chamber, which could allow smoke spillage in the event of power failure) non sealed hoppers as well could be a source of smoke spillage which could result in a major issue such as a burnback/smokeback. stoves with some use on them which may be ready for new gaskets could also fall into this category. notice that the manual didnt state "you must" but that "it may be necessary" the purpose of this is twofold, first of all , no manufacturer wants a customer to have smoke spillage in any event, and also to protect the manufacturer in the letigious society we live in today. either way , its a reasonable statement to have included in an instructional manual.

 

[MCPO]

I think they are telling you that CO2 laden air can be sucked from your pellet stove even if it`s supplied with an OAK if your house suffers from negative pressure.
Consideration of the whole house demand and any pre-existing insufficient air supply should have already been addressed prior to any pellet stove install / operation. Obviously pellet stove owners should be aware of these issues but no one should believe it will be cured soley by a properly installed stove.(with an OAK)
Air deficiencies should be addressed separately and not in any way dependent upon the stove`s OAK.

From the manual:

"The outside air connection will supply the demands of the pellet appliance, but consideration must be given to the total house demand. House demand may consume some air needed for the stove, especially
during a power failure. It may be necessary to add additional ventilation to the space in which the pellet appliance is located. Consult with your local
HVAC professional to determine the ventilation demands for your house."

WTF is this all about?
Put a pipe to the outside for combustion air, but that may not be enough?

The Lifetime warrenty is a joke, actually it is the best joke in the industry.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

From the manual:

"The outside air connection will supply the demands of the pellet appliance, but consideration must be given to the total house demand. House demand may consume some air needed for the stove, especially
during a power failure. It may be necessary to add additional ventilation to the space in which the pellet appliance is located. Consult with your local
HVAC professional to determine the ventilation demands for your house."

WTF is this all about?
Put a pipe to the outside for combustion air, but that may not be enough?

The Lifetime warrenty is a joke, actually it is the best joke in the industry.

in some cases during a power outage while the stove is running (even with the OAK) other devices like i mentioned in the post earlier could already have the house in a negative pressure state. now , if the stove and venting system is completely airtight there is little chance of smoke release in the home, however if the unit has an "indirect" intake connection (i have seen stoves with a pipe to attach the OAK to that is not sealed on the inside to the combustion chamber, which could allow smoke spillage in the event of power failure) non sealed hoppers as well could be a source of smoke spillage which could result in a major issue such as a burnback/smokeback. stoves with some use on them which may be ready for new gaskets could also fall into this category. notice that the manual didnt state "you must" but that "it may be necessary" the purpose of this is twofold, first of all , no manufacturer wants a customer to have smoke spillage in any event, and also to protect the manufacturer in the letigious society we live in today. either way , its a reasonable statement to have included in an instructional manual.

whats a ballpark cfm range for a 25pdvc? how much air being blown out straight out the wall with no chimni

the blower mounted on that unit is rated at 120CFM actual outlay would be likely 70 to 100 cfm output

 

[summit]

harman makes their own nifty wall pass thru w/ fresh air intake built in... one hole, two pipes... very awesome, but $150 a piece... thats why they reccommend OAK... with their OAK, they can install w/in 18" of a window...

 

[camdids]

I understand why an OAK is recimmended and would like to install one. The Harman Manual does now say Strongly recommended. The Installation Instructions are the same as Mine from a Year ago. I have an Existing Masonry Chimney with a 26foot 4 inch liner. The Liner has a cap plate over the existing Chimney liner where the Steel liner goes through. Capped at the top. The Manual for my installation shows the OAK being a 5 or so foot pipe going into the chimney just above the Damper area. If this is all thats needed, and not drilling through the Chimney wall, then I have no reason to not install one.
Is this still a good way to install it.

 

[LIpelletpig]

camdids,

tonyd another member also has a Harman Accentra Insert like myself sent me some great photos of his install. I just finished the top portion of the chimney OAK today and will be posting the pictures within a few days. I actually added two air import holes at the top of the chimney cap that are both 2" round. I have over a 30' run up the chimney so I was over cempensating for air... just in case. I actually extended my chimney cap for my 4" pipe so that the dirty exaust air is not pulled down the fresh air holes. Stay tuned I'll have pics in a few days.

 

[tonyd]

Medreach, Please don't tell me the two holes are way better then one. I have a stainless cap up top and I ruined everything in my shop that had anything to do with drilling or cutting that 2/1/8 hole for the pvc pipe. It was the ONLY problem I had. EPA strongly recommenced that I re-burn the exhaust gasses. Now my stove won't have any problem passing emissions. EGR he he. Let me know how it works out.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Medreach, Please don't tell me the two holes are way better then one. I have a stainless cap up top and I ruined everything in my shop that had anything to do with drilling or cutting that 2/1/8 hole for the pvc pipe. It was the ONLY problem I had. EPA strongly recommenced that I re-burn the exhaust gasses. Now my stove won't have any problem passing emissions. EGR he he. Let me know how it works out.

two parallel runs of pipe would absolutely be better than one from an overall resistance standpoint. 30' is a LONG run! In one of the manuals I looked at lately (can't remember which) they terminated the OAK at the top of the chimney with two 90's so it's pointing straight down and farther away from the exhaust. Also, you don't have to worry about rain.

 

[mark d fellows]

You know, I'm just not going to worry about it. In my parents house we burned wood for a large portion of my life. Mom would often forget to open the damper and smoke would back up into the house. My house isn't that tight, I have a 5 foot vertical run making draft in a power outage, and it's got a combustion fan. OAK doesn't prevent an exhaust leak and that is the only place in the stove where I could get positive pressure if the combustion fan goes out.

As for the warranty, I am just not going to worry about it and assume I am grandfathered in until there is a problem, and then if they don't cover me, I will raise all sorts of hell!

 

[MCPO]

You know, I'm just not going to worry about it. In my parents house we burned wood for a large portion of my life. Mom would often forget to open the damper and smoke would back up into the house. My house isn't that tight, I have a 5 foot vertical run making draft in a power outage, and it's got a combustion fan. OAK doesn't prevent an exhaust leak and that is the only place in the stove where I could get positive pressure if the combustion fan goes out.

As for the warranty, I am just not going to worry about it and assume I am grandfathered in until there is a problem, and then if they don't cover me, I will raise all sorts of hell!

And you will in all probability be just fine.

 

[6tonsperyear]

yeah but what about coming right out of the pstove and thru the floor onto a crawlspce for the outside air supply? there really isnt any other option for my old farmhouse (4000sq ft) built in 1803. running harman accentra freestanding, dang near heats the whole place!

 

[Jabberwocky]

Just because a pellet stove appears to run fine without a OAK doesn`t necessarily mean it doesn`t need one.
The benefits might not always be obvious by looking at the flame.
Why go through all the the trouble and expense of installing a pellet stove and omit this rather simple , low cost part of it.

Not to be a poo poo'r, but adding an OAK is NOT a 'rather simple, low cost part of it'... For instance, the OP has to cut through brick, studs, and his outside wall to add one. In my case, one of my fireplaces is on an inside wall with no access at all to outside air except to run an extra 17 foot long flexible pipe up my chinmey and out along side of the exhaust pipe. No where in the Quad literature does it say how long this OAK line can be without restricting the ability of the combustion blower to acheive proper flow. I'd love to do it, but I just don't know how in my case.
My other stove insert has an ash dump plate in the floor of the fireplace so I could go out there. These stoves also take in room air through the hopper since it isn't sealed. I assume there is no seal so that airflow goes into the firebox rather than very hot air filtering back up into the pellets in the hopper.

Good points and beautiful set up.