Greening Ontario electricity ... the true story

[Highbeam]

I think you made my point. Reduce the potential of having the same peak demand among a population of users and the need for a more robust distribution system disappears. Users of electricity have been living in a culture of unlimited power availability without need for conservation. Change the culture and the need for capacity in the distribution system diminishes. Fewer substations, lower transmission line voltages, less robust poles and smaller ROW's, less generation capacity, etc. No need for that new nuclear or coal plant to be funded by charges for generated power. In fact, an ability to retire without replacing aged generating facilities.

A complimentary point actually. You are approaching the question from a theoretical possibility and I am explaining the current state of affairs.

I will agree that if every homes meter was limited to 100 amps instead of 200 amps that some trivial amount of money could be saved on wire size and more could be saved on generating capacity. Same number of substations, same voltages, same poles, same ROW, but less generation capacity and possibly smaller wires.

We already do this to some extent. You can buy a 100 amp meter, 200 amp meter, or 320 (might be 360 I forget) sized meter for your residence. The huge majority are 200 amp meters. The "delivery" charge is the same regardless so there is very little reward for limiting yourself to a smaller peak demand. A higher fixed base rate would make sense for a larger meter.

The point of this thread is that so much of the utility's revenue is directly tied to consumption that a drop in that consumption makes it impossible to cover the fixed costs of keeping the delivery system available. The variable cost of power tied to that actual consumption by the consumers is a very small part of the revenue requirements. In an effort to reward conservation and be fair, the billing system heavily depends on consumption which creates a shortfall when people actually conserve.

Don't fool yourself, the utility does NOT want you to conserve. Their business is selling power. If you do conserve then they will necessarily raise rates per unit of power or raise the portion of the bill that is fixed in an effort to remain "whole" and pay their bills. The regulating body of utilities in the US approves rate hikes and the necessary/customary utility profit margin is sufficient reason to raise rates. It's a rigged game on purpose. The utility business is not risky which is why so many of us invest in utilities for the steady (though lower) returns.

 

[Highbeam]

The utility in a monopoly regulated environment has a failing business model. Any other business would have to cut costs, be innovative, find new product lines, etc. to survive. But not the utility - just raise rates!.

Land line phone companies faced and continue to face the same scenario with cellular competition. So now also the wired cable companies with competition from satellite. It is another discussion on what regulated utilities must do to survive in changing world.

The utility in a monopoly regulated environment is not in a failing business model. It is in a guaranteed WIN business model. The regulation works both ways. They can't raise the rates without reason, but the reason can be as simple as maintaining the customary profit. This is by design. Since the monopoly utility only invested in infrastructure if they could be guaranteed the profit AND the utility is an essential service. We need them and they need us. The regulating body maintains a level of restraint.

The really cool thing about our times on this planet are the alternatives that have broken the monopolies. How cool. Cable, phone, are excellent examples of how when an alternative breaks the monopoly the utilities lose the ability to get their guaranteed profit. I no longer have cable or phone service to my home.

I believe that once battery technology takes the next leap that solar plus battery will mean many of us can completely "cut the cord" to our power companies. That will shake up the utility system so much that strange things will happen. Only city dwellers without space for solar will need this piped electricity. They won't want to pay the rates necessary to keep the utility monster alive so.....

 

[jb6l6gc]

In response to the 0 emissions of these green energy initiatives, everyone seems to forget the building, installation and maintenance of these things does have a fairly significant carbon footprint. The windmills use a very large amount of gear and hydraulic oil which has to be changed out regularly as well. I just think we are already paying one of the highest rates for electricity and it keeps on going up. This government has a very bad track record for their spending.

 

[Highbeam]

The windmills use a very large amount of gear and hydraulic oil which has to be changed out regularly as well

And recycled! One time construction pollution is similar whether building powerplants that use fossil fuel or not. Same with these solar panels, they take an upfront investment in resources/pollution. We need to consider the whole lifecycle.

 

[jb6l6gc]

I get all these posts I really do! Conservation and green energy are important...however if you lived where I live and have all this stuff in your backyard and then got bills that are significantly higher. I mean 40-50$ more for electricity and still using less and less. Wait they made sure to put I saved 10$ because they paid off the last debt. Don't get me started on that.
Ontario has a serious problem with how the government is constantly spending. They go into debt just to create pet projects and temporary jobs, but jobs so they can sell it to the masses.

 

[LowbanksArcher]

In response to the 0 emissions of these green energy initiatives, everyone seems to forget the building, installation and maintenance of these things does have a fairly significant carbon footprint. The windmills use a very large amount of gear and hydraulic oil which has to be changed out regularly as well. I just think we are already paying one of the highest rates for electricity and it keeps on going up. This government has a very bad track record for their spending.

Greeny grass green

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[begreen]

Brilliant, Klavan paints the expert as an idiotic robot. That is such an accurate picture. Humans are imperfect, but hopefully growing and progressing in spite of inherent greed. Here are a bit more intelligent presentations by market professionals. Happy Earth Day.
http://www.ted.com/talks/geoff_mulgan_post_crash_investing_in_a_better_world_1
http://www.ted.com/talks/pavan_sukhdev_what_s_the_price_of_nature

In the meantime, the alternative is not working out too well at all.
http://billmoyers.com/story/global-warmings-terrifying-new-chemistry/

 

[iamlucky13]

The utility in a monopoly regulated environment is not in a failing business model. It is in a guaranteed WIN business model. The regulation works both ways. They can't raise the rates without reason, but the reason can be as simple as maintaining the customary profit. This is by design. Since the monopoly utility only invested in infrastructure if they could be guaranteed the profit AND the utility is an essential service. We need them and they need us. The regulating body maintains a level of restraint.

The level of restraint varies, though. I used to live in an area where the local utility was a publicly-traded company. I bought some of their stock because I figured as long as my monthly bill is a guaranteed profit for them, why not recoup some of that profit from their dividends? It's been a solid investment. Since I've been watching the company more closely, I don't recall the regulatory agency ever denying a rate raise request. At most, they very slightly trim them, but the trend handily outpaces inflation.

Unfortunately, now I'm served by a PUD, but the public ownership doesn't seem to be any better. Their interest does not seem to be cost-effectiveness for the customers, or even the best compromise in pursuit of goals like lowering emissions. It seems instead to be maximizing their budget.

The really cool thing about our times on this planet are the alternatives that have broken the monopolies.

I'm not seeing it happening. Instead, they've realized they can jump on the alternatives, collect the tax credits, and request rate increases if the tax credits don't cover any increased costs. This article discusses the trend, focusing on the for-profit utility I mentioned above:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-utilities-team-up-with-greens-against-consumers-1456530275

 

[jb6l6gc]

^^^ am I right! I work for a corporation. Profits are #1!

 

[LowbanksArcher]

Well, went for a walk through our woods today, and here's the view from my property line. This is a parcel of land we own that was earmarked for me to build a home one day.
It's just not right what they're doing to people here. The lots are too small, neighbours too close. But the subsidies are big, and so become our electricity bills.

 

[Lake Girl]

Sorry to see ... how big a parcel of land? Other options on house location with it's own solar array? My undeveloped property will not be attached to grid if I can help it!

 

[jebatty]

It's just not right what they're doing to people here. The lots are too small, neighbours too close. But the subsidies are big, and so become our electricity bills.

A big part of me agrees with you, and another part wonders whether the presence of wind turbines in a large area of Ontario also connects people (maybe with distaste) with the source of electricity, right in their front or back yards, rather than in a distant coal fired and polluting generating plant. On so many things society saddles one group of people (or the environment) with a burden to benefit another group of people who can live an undisturbed life with all the benefits of the burden on others. Maybe there will be a positive side: increased conservation to reduce the need for polluting electricity, along with improved health from non-polluting sourced electricity.

In the area where I live forests are being ripped out to create new agricultural fields, just to grow corn, soybeans and potatoes. Rich and vibrant forest ecosystems, which also contribute massive quantities of clean water to aquifers and streams, are turned into environmental deserts that dump pesticides, herbicides and polluting fertilizers into the aquifers and streams. Poisoned, unclean and unhealthy drinking water is "cropping" up at more and more places. Maybe connecting more people with the dirty side of big agriculture will have a positive effect of ag cleaning up its act, and hopefully this happens before it is too late.

And as you intimate, Lowbanks Archer, perhaps just another case of "follow the money."

 

[Lake Girl]

distant coal fired and polluting generating plant

At one time, there were 5 coal fired generators in Ontario ... Nanticoke now closed, Atikokan converted to pellet, Lambton, Thunder Bay going to biomass, Lakeview demolished. Lakeview was one of the plants that was to be converted to NG but became a political boondoggle.

"They could have done better in Lakeview. Instead, by backing down, they are now the proud owners of three started and stopped power projects west of Toronto, one $190-million payout, another settlement pending for the Oakville plant, and not a single megawatt of power produced for the growing, intensifying area. And no appropriate sites to build a new plant."
(broken link removed to http://o.canada.com/news/how-ontario-could-have-avoided-the-180-million-power-plant-boondoggle)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generating_stations_in_Ontario
The bulk of generation is either nuclear (12,900MW), NG (13,933MW) or hydroelectric (8,129MW). Interesting that there are no numbers for solar.... biomass/landfill gas (360MW) and wind (1,246MW).

The 2010 Bird/Bat report for the Wolfe Island wind farm showed approximately 14 bird strikes per year per turbine versus industry average of 2 per year...

PS ... Nice in theory to place production "in your face" except this only is the more rural section of southern Ontario and the larger centres like Mississauga ie. Lakeview GS don't have to deal with the reminder of where their power comes from.

Cost over runs on the nukes have been ridiculous and now we are in the refurbishment phase...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/darlington-nuclear-refurbishment-1.3395696

 

[Lake Girl]

http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/current-electricity-contracts/solar

 

[Lake Girl]

Greenwich windfarm near Dorion receives the community nod while the Big Thunder Wind farm was protested vigorously by residents and Fort William first nation. Views from Mount McKay are amazing and there is a huge historical significance to the area for both the general population and the first nations...
(broken link removed to https://www.nationaltrustcanada.ca/issues-campaigns/top-ten-endangered/explore-past-listings/ontario/nor%E2%80%99wester-mountain-range-and-loch)

 

[Highbeam]

NIMBY

 

[georgepds]

Thank you Canada

"The economic analysis asserts that residents would see a net benefit of $171 million a year in savings from long-term contracts for hydropower and windpower from Canada and northern New England. The study was conducted by Power Advisory for the Massachusetts Clean Energy Partnership, a coalition of wind, hydro and transmission companies."

(broken link removed to http://www.berkshireeagle.com/editorials/ci_29801436/our-opinion-revealing-study-hydro-wind?mc_cid=17f963cf18&mc_eid=43ddca35db)

 

[georgepds]

Well, went for a walk through our woods today, and here's the view from my property line. ....

View attachment 178235

I think it's beautiful.. eyes of the beholder and all that..

I started going through Spain in the early 90's, mostly south central and south west (dry and arid, think Arizona) . At that time it was all dirt roads and bare ridges. These days it's highways, and ridges filled with windmills. Aesthetically, some are displeased, but not me. I can't get enough of the windmills.

 

[LowbanksArcher]

I think it's beautiful.. eyes of the beholder and all that..

I started going through Spain in the early 90's, mostly south central and south west (dry and arid, think Arizona) . At that time it was all dirt roads and bare ridges. These days it's highways, and ridges filled with windmills. Aesthetically, some are displeased, but not me. I can't get enough of the windmills.

True. Many seem to like the look of them. The sound is another thing. Fine for people passing through from the city on their weekend drive. But for us in the country who have to live in their flickering shadow and hear them all day and night, different story. Not to mention the loss in property value. Oh, and the greedy neighbour cashes in big time, while your land value/children's inheritance suffers. I know of a neighbour down the road who feels vibrations in his home from a nearby turbine when the ground is frozen. That kind of stuff is simply unacceptable.

 

[iamlucky13]

This video claims to include calibrated recordings of actual turbine sounds at distances from 2 km down to 250 meters (820 feet).

(broken link removed)

Does anybody who has been near a turbine have commentary on how accurate the video is?

I've been intending to go visit a wind farm in our area that has publicly accessible roads through the farm in large part because I want to get a sense of the supposed noise issue. I drive past the farm several times a year, but have never had time to go out on the trails. However, at a rest stop adjacent to the wind farm, which based on the distance scale on Google Maps is about 300 meters away from the nearest turbine, I've never been able to hear anything from the turbines.

 

[Where2]

I've been intending to go visit a wind farm in our area that has publicly accessible roads through the farm in large part because I want to get a sense of the supposed noise issue.

Make sure you visit on a day the wind is blowing. Because I had read so many opinions on the subject on the internet, my wife and I actually made a point to stop and walk up within 100' of the base of the turbine that the University of Maine has on their UMPI campus. (Google Maps coordinates: 46.667382N, 68.020151W). I certainly encourage anyone who wonders about turbine noise to find an accessible windmill for themselves.

My house has been situated within 1200' of an active Class I/Class II freight railroad for 50+ years. This part of South Florida is all built on sand, so the house resonates every time a freight train goes by (14+ times per day, 7 days per week). The thing you notice resonating most are the springs on the back of decorative plate hangers, and the medicine cabinet glass doors on the second floor. Despite half a century of daily vibration, my slab on grade has only one minor 23" long crack in it which has not seemed to lengthen in the 18 years I've owned the house. We will never know whether the crack was caused by the trains, poor compaction of the soil, or missing reinforcement within the slab. I have no carpet, the entire first floor is exposed terrazzo (original to the house). If there were other cracks, I'd know about them. The rail line predates my house by 70 years...

 

[Lake Girl]

Didn't realize this ... air pressure changes... https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14593-wind-turbines-make-bat-lungs-explode/

Approximately 40-50 decibels at 250m (820 feet) compares to: https://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/Training/PPETrain/dblevels.htm
Intensity is measured in decibels while pitch is measured in Hz. Hz is not accounted for in the study linked above

wikipedia:
... More recent studies have suggested that noise levels of 50 dB(A) at night may also increase the risk of myocardial infarction by chronically elevating cortisol production.[20][21][22]
... lower threshold for noise producing sleep disturbance is 45 dB(A) or lower.[31]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_from_noise

I am familiar with the area near LowbanksArcher and this area is very rural land with very low ambient noises. Like my home, you can hear a vehicle coming from a long ways off...

Thank you Canada

I'd rather have lower electrical rates thanks

 

[Highbeam]

I've been intending to go visit a wind farm in our area that has publicly accessible roads through the farm in large part because I want to get a sense of the supposed noise issue. I drive past the farm several times a year, but have never had time to go out on the trails. However, at a rest stop adjacent to the wind farm, which based on the distance scale on Google Maps is about 300 meters away from the nearest turbine, I've never been able to hear anything from the turbines.

Ryegrass summit on I90 I'd guess.

 

[begreen]

Interesting to note that in 2015, 63,135 MW of wind power capacity was added globally, a 23.2% increase from the 51,230 MW installed in 2014. Much of this annual record was driven by China, which installed a remarkable 30,293 MW.

 

[Lake Girl]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/electric-car-charging-stations-set-up-along-hwy-401-1.1932075

Twenty new charging stations ... Windsor to the Quebec border. Guess the rest of Ontario doesn't count. The other charging stations are "sponsored" through Sun Country Highway.