Going Crazy Trying to Decide Which Stove

[kjayhawk]

We originally wanted a Vermont Castings Dutchwest ... or a comparable stove from Jotul or Hearthstone ... but couldn't afford any of those. Rather disappointed, we "settled" for a Napoleon 1400 because of the price and the reviews I found here. After a year of burning, we no longer feel as if we "settled".

We love our Napoleon 1400. Here's why:

1) Ease of operation: it's simple, easy, and my children are capable of running it!

2) Looks: as vtburner stated, for a steel stove, it's rather attractive ... and comes with a standard cast iron arched window in the door!

3) Wood burning: my chimney sweep raved about the Napoleons. He said they are simple to deal with (not a lot of parts to break), and not over-engineered like the VCastings.

4) Heat Output: the 1400 heats our 3600 sq. ft. home very well. And the stove is in a back corner of our lower level!

5) Keeps the Chimney clean: last year was our first year for wood burning. Needless to say, we had to burn "greenish" wood. The Napoleon did great even with this wood. And the chimney sweep couldn't believe what the chimney looked like after a winter of not perfectly seasoned wood.

In his words: "Keep doing what you've been doing ... it's what the Napoleon does best!"

 

[dznam]

I'd shy away from using the Elm or any non-epa stove if full time burning is your intent. The new stoves are simply much more efficient. The Elm in our camp is a nice piece of furniture, but it just doesn't compare to the modern stoves. I'd second the comments on the Jotuls, but I am biased. We've been burning the Oslo (500) for about 3 years and the Firelight (600) for ten. Given your house size, location and vintage, I'd suggest you take a hard look at the Firelight - we prefer it for that extra "oomph" on cold days here in Maine and the larger firebox allows for longer burns. Having said that, the Oslo is no slouch, either.

 

[Ratman]

I'd shy away from using the Elm or any non-epa stove if full time burning is your intent. The new stoves are simply much more efficient. The Elm in our camp is a nice piece of furniture, but it just doesn't compare to the modern stoves. I'd second the comments on the Jotuls, but I am biased. We've been burning the Oslo (500) for about 3 years and the Firelight (600) for ten. Given your house size, location and vintage, I'd suggest you take a hard look at the Firelight - we prefer it for that extra "oomph" on cold days here in Maine and the larger firebox allows for longer burns. Having said that, the Oslo is no slouch, either.

Rather have an Elm.
A modern EPA stove is going to do what for you?
Make breakfast in the morning?
Child, Please

 

[begreen]

I think you could lose your mind trying to figure out which stove to get. After reading on-line and going to dealers, I still don't know which stove to buy. HELP?

Not to complicate things but did you have a chance to read this link:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewannounce/13750_2/

 

[dznam]

I'd shy away from using the Elm or any non-epa stove if full time burning is your intent. The new stoves are simply much more efficient. The Elm in our camp is a nice piece of furniture, but it just doesn't compare to the modern stoves. I'd second the comments on the Jotuls, but I am biased. We've been burning the Oslo (500) for about 3 years and the Firelight (600) for ten. Given your house size, location and vintage, I'd suggest you take a hard look at the Firelight - we prefer it for that extra "oomph" on cold days here in Maine and the larger firebox allows for longer burns. Having said that, the Oslo is no slouch, either.

Rather have an Elm.
A modern EPA stove is going to do what for you?
Make breakfast in the morning?
Child, Please

I think I smell a rat! I actually own an Elm so only have real-world experience to offer. Et tu? I suppose that watching utube videos constitutes a superior alternate reality experience that you base your comments on. Use the search function to educate yourself about epa stoves and then find a link to a utube breakfast and enjoy eating that tomorrow a.m. and be sure to advise us on how it tasted. Bon appetite!

 

[madrone]

Rather have an Elm.
A modern EPA stove is going to do what for you?
Make breakfast in the morning?
Child, Please

are you serious?

 

[Ratman]

Both of ya's, dzam and madrone please read jugarf's posts before launching.
He has serious dimension constraints.
He also requires that the family not be blasted out of the living room.
More importantly he specifies that he does not want an insert!
Oh ya, and he also mentions he desires cast iron because he likes the look.

Please don't let the facts or his requirements get in your way.
Again I'll ask; knowing his project plan why is it mandatory that he buy an EPA stove?

 

[jugarf]

I'd shy away from using the Elm or any non-epa stove if full time burning is your intent. The new stoves are simply much more efficient. The Elm in our camp is a nice piece of furniture, but it just doesn't compare to the modern stoves. I'd second the comments on the Jotuls, but I am biased. We've been burning the Oslo (500) for about 3 years and the Firelight (600) for ten. Given your house size, location and vintage, I'd suggest you take a hard look at the Firelight - we prefer it for that extra "oomph" on cold days here in Maine and the larger firebox allows for longer burns. Having said that, the Oslo is no slouch, either.

Rather have an Elm.
A modern EPA stove is going to do what for you?
Make breakfast in the morning?
Child, Please

What is an Elm? Just when you thought you had read everything? I think the best thing the modern EPA stove will get is the 30% tax credit!! That enables me to get a Hearthstone, if it will fit!

 

[vtburner]

Both of ya's, dzam and madrone please read jugarf's posts before launching.
He has serious dimension constraints.

I hate to say it, but after reviewing the dimensions on the Napoleon 1900, I'd say that due to the constraints jugarf posted, it just wont fit without some major fudging/reconstruction of his fireplace... He could still maybe have a thimble installed a little higher up and seal off the firplace flue, but I imagine he wants to keep it simple. However, the first thing I thought when I read his post was that if it were me, I would build out the hearth so as to put the stove out into the room and not have it set back in a fireplace... but thats just me.

He also requires that the family not be blasted out of the living room.

A highly convective design would be best, so as to move as much air around the house without overblasting the immediate area. From what I can tell, the Elm is a straight up cast iron box(cylinder) with no convection system and no option for a blower, so in order to heat his whole house he would probably have to crank the h.e. double hockeysticks out of it, which would, of course, bake the family out of the room its in. I know because I have a cast Iron stove about the size of the biggest elm, and in order to keep the far bedrooms above 55deg, it has to be over 90 in the room where the stove is. not to mention, standing near the thing when it is up to temp is approximately like standing near the sun.

Please don't let the facts or his requirements get in your way.

Sarcasm detected. See above, I had overlooked the tiny vertical clearance for the stovepipe/stove to fit into the fireplace opening - I still think the Napoleon would make a great stove for him, but clearly it isn't going to work with his current setup (unless he tackles some alterations I mentioned). HOWEVER, neither will most of the other large EPA stoves (or large non-epa stoves for that matter), as getting a stovepipe/stove under and into a 30" high fireplace is a tough thing to do when most of the stoves are already 30" or taller themselves, and most of them have a top flue, so you'd need an elbow as well, etc,etc... He really does have a tough setup for a stove, and he has a fundamental incompatibility between the size of a stove that would meet his requirements and the size of his spot for the stove.

However, before I get too apologetic - you should heed your own advice on this one. I looked up the ELM user manual and an Elm big enough to heat his space would be way, WAY too big to fit, not only on height, but also on depth... just sayin'...

Again I'll ask; knowing his project plan why is it mandatory that he buy an EPA stove?

well, for one thing, depending on where he lives, it may be ILLEGAL to install a non-epa stove in his house as a primary heater. Aside from that little catch, there is no reason a newer EPA stove would be absolutely required. However, I think that if he were to do his research, he would come to the conclusion that yes, a non-epa stove will put out heat (mine has been doing that for years) however, New EPA's are engineered with modern knowledge of thermodynamics and combustion science in mind, and they invariably will put out more heat with less wood. If he doesnt mind blowing through a ton of wood (i personally am sick of it, thus the switch to EPA), and he doesnt mind taking a risk on the safety of a 20 year+ old stove, then by all means, he can make that decision himself.

I also think that, like me, most people who are buying a stove come to this site looking for information on whats new in the wood burning world, and which newer stove would be the best for them. The people on this forum can then share their collective knowledge and assist them with the purchase of a stove that is right for them. Personally, I think it is borderline irresponsible to try to push a 20+ year old technology onto somebody that has come asking about new stoves. I would save that for someone who has found one of them on craigslist and wants to know opinions on it. Just my opinion...

 

[jugarf]

Thanks BeGreen,
I do realize that the ultimate decision is mine. I think the greatest thing about getting input from others is that it opens your eyes to things you might not otherwise notice when you go look at a stove, the good and the bad. It's all a learning experience, taken with a grain of salt. I too research the daylights out of every major purchase and I consider this major, especially if you're not happy down the road. That's why I want to actually see the stove (perferably working) before i buy. I really, really appreciate all your comments. I've learned a lot and it's been great fun in the process. Thanks to all!

 

[vtburner]

Darn it! the Alderlea won't fit either darn top flue...

I would suggest considering building a nice big hearth pad out into the room. This will allow you to choose any stove you want, then all you'd have to do is put in a thimble or pipe straight into your fireplace depending on if the stove you choose has a top or rear flue. If you saved a bunch of money by buying a napoleon or PEsummit instead of a hearthstone, you might even have enough money left over to pay for all the chimney work and hearthpad. You could save even more by doing the hearthpad yourself, theres a lot of great DIY experience documented within this forum.

Your current constraints are just too much for a large stove. Without changes, i'd say you will probably need either a smaller stove or.....guhh, an insert.

 

[Chargerman]

Seems like your current setup has you pretty limited. How often do you lose power in your area? I know some areas are more prone to ice storms that cause long term outages. At my old house we would lose power a lot. Fortunately, it was only for a few hours at a time which didn't cause much problem except having to reset the stupid microwave clock and date settings all the time before it would work again.

I understand if you don't like the looks of an insert but I was just curious if power loss was the main concern. I am considering a freestanding stove for heat in the basement that we will be finishing. This would also be a provide nice supplement heat to the upstairs just in case of a long term power outage. The other choice would be to use a back up power generator.

 

[jugarf]

In trying to keep it as simple as possible, it looks like the Jotul F600 Firelight will give me plenty of heat and fit on the hearth. It has a top or rear flue. I looked at the Napoleons, but all looked to have top flues. I'm not interested in enlarging the hearth, because I have to look into putting more support underneath the floor. If I did this I could get the Hearthstone, but I have wavy floors as it is in my old house. I would still have to go Equinox because of the rear flue. Then the stove front would be only 3/4 feet from the end of my couch. And, the Equinox is really heavy at 689 pounds. I went on the Napoleon website and saw that the efficiency was in the 68/69% range. Do these qualify for the tax credit? I thought a stove had to be 75% efficient to qualify. There was no mention of the tax credit on their website either and most stove websites are really pushing the credit.

 

[kjayhawk]

In trying to keep it as simple as possible, it looks like the Jotul F600 Firelight will give me plenty of heat and fit on the hearth. It has a top or rear flue. I looked at the Napoleons, but all looked to have top flues. I'm not interested in enlarging the hearth, because I have to look into putting more support underneath the floor. If I did this I could get the Hearthstone, but I have wavy floors as it is in my old house. I would still have to go Equinox because of the rear flue. Then the stove front would be only 3/4 feet from the end of my couch. And, the Equinox is really heavy at 689 pounds. I went on the Napoleon website and saw that the efficiency was in the 68/69% range. Do these qualify for the tax credit? I thought a stove had to be 75% efficient to qualify. There was no mention of the tax credit on their website either and most stove websites are really pushing the credit.

According to this certificate, the Napoleons qualify for the rebate: (broken link removed to http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Company/irs_certificate.pdf).

 

[jugarf]

I just thought of something else. Am I going to be able to sit on my couch, which is perpendicular to the fireplace. The end of the couch is 3 feet from the hearth. The thing isn't going to catch on fire or anything, is it? Since I can't seem to see a Jotul in action, I really don't know hot one actually is.

 

[begreen]

Three feet directly in front of the hearth is pretty close, even from a working standpoint and even for an open, screened fireplace. With a woodstove, there is a lot of heat radiated out of the front and one needs room for the door(s) to swing open. The sofa may not catch fire, but the surface will get hot. If this is a leather sofa, it will likely dry it out quickly. If the couch can be moved back and away even a foot, that will help.

 

[fredarm]

What about a hearth heater? It's a hybrid stove/insert. It sticks out far enough so that you'll still get plenty of heat from it if the power goes off and you can't run the blower, but because it fits part way into the fireplace it takes up less room than a hearth-mounted regular stove. Regency makes one, there may be others. (broken link removed to http://www.regency-fire.com/Wood/Inserts/H2100/). Also, the Jotul 450 insert can be installed sticking part way out of the fireplace. I haven't checked clearances of these stoves for your fireplace.

 

[Jotulover]

JOTUL JOTUL JOTUL

Jotul! Go for the best!

 

[firefighterjake]

I just thought of something else. Am I going to be able to sit on my couch, which is perpendicular to the fireplace. The end of the couch is 3 feet from the hearth. The thing isn't going to catch on fire or anything, is it? Since I can't seem to see a Jotul in action, I really don't know hot one actually is.

Not likely to spontaneously burst into flame . . . but no one will want to sit that close to the stove when it's cranking. There is a lot of radiational heat coming off these stoves . . . sometimes I find myself moving further away from the stove when I get too warm and my chair is located about 8-10 feet away from the stove.

 

[vtburner]

I went on the Napoleon website and saw that the efficiency was in the 68/69% range. Do these qualify for the tax credit? I thought a stove had to be 75% efficient to qualify. There was no mention of the tax credit on their website either and most stove websites are really pushing the credit.

Wierd... I just went on their website and I couldn't find any percentages for efficiency. It is odd, because not long ago I looked it up and there was a figure right on the website in the "specifications" page where the efficiency of the 1900 was 78%...

Either way, you know it is over 75% efficient because that I believe is right, the cutoff for the tax credit. The Vortex series does qualify, as noted by another earlier. I already have the form ready to go.


BUT, the Napoleons arent gonna work for you, just won't fit. I think you're on to something with the jotul f600, if it will indeed fit in your opening. Awesome quality stove, and beautiful to boot. If it were me though, I would be a little worried about it being a purely radiant heater, given the details you put out in the original post, your desire to keep the immediate area not too hot, and for the fact that your couch is only 3' away. maybe an ecofan on the top will solve that though... or a box fan...

 

[fredarm]

One end of each of our couches (we have 2 facing each other across a coffee table) is about 3 feet from our little Vista and it can get pretty warm on that end of the couches when the stove is cranking. Not unsafe warm, just uncomfortably warm.

 

[jugarf]

A picture is worth a thousand words, if I can figure how to get it on here. My pictures are 1MB each. Does anyone know how to get them on here? I tried attaching, but it said nothing over 450KB allowed. My camera is old too - a 5 MP. Is there any way of manuvering around this?

 

[Ratman]

He has serious dimension constraints.
He also requires that the family not be blasted out of the living room.
More importantly he specifies that he does not want an insert!
Oh ya, and he also mentions he desires cast iron because he likes the look.

vtburner, sorry about the dig.
My bad, I'll leave the tude at the door next time.
You brought up some good points but our goal here is to assist jugarf with his questions.

I stand firm on my assessment.
My 4 topics were:
1. Dimensions constraints: I believe the ELM will fit.
2. He doesn't want to be blasted out of the room: Smaller ELM covers that.
3. He does not want an insert: ELM covers that.
4. He desires a cast iron look: ELM covers that.

vtburner, as you know this site has ample help files in regards to heat distribution so don't get locked-in on the belief you must have a blower.

jugarf, Here's more info on the ELM Cast Iron stove
http://www.vermontironstove.com/

 

[jugarf]

Well the Elm is certainly an unusual looking stove. How does it work? Is it still made? In Vermont? I'm going to Vermont this weekend. Is there anywhere anyone could recommend that I look at stoves? I'll be near Rutland.

 

[REF1]

I owned two Elms back in the late 80s and through the 90s; a 24" than switched to the 36" to heat our 3k sq' home. I would have gotten an Elm now, but our shallow hearth would have forced us to turn it sideways. Just didn't want to do that.

The Elms I had were cats. Not made anymore. I liked their unique look, the warming shelves, the soapstone covered combustion chamber (which made great pancakes), and they threw off nice heat. Could fill them with wood easily enough. The new ones rely on secondary combustion, and they are basically the same as other manufacturer's secondary burn tube technology.

The view of the fire is different because of a number of things - the cast iron Dutch Elm tree on the door, as well as the double glass, the outer being rounded (actually Pyrex), so it distorts the actual view of the fire, but you still see things okay.

When I first got my stoves (in Maine, including Elmira and Hearthstone), I was all hyped to sit and watch the fire. Right. I had about as much time to do that as plan for a moon trip. It's great to sit and watch a fire, it's also kind of boring after awhile because you get used to it, and life goes on.

The youtube vids are informative. I've had some correspondence with the maker. Nice guy.