Getting started on a budget; buying a used stove

[Marty]

.... Actually I want to post a little floor plan of the house for you guys to see; it has a horrible layout and almost appears to have been designed to NOT be heated with wood. I don't know how to do this except draw one on paper, take a pic, and post it. Guess I'll go get busy.

Some countys have tax assesment websites that include a dimensional drawing of the property (don't know if yours does)... if your useing a PC there is a program called paint that can draw a picture that you can save for future post's or add modifications to. I'd bet Mac would have something like that as well.

I think your best bet is to take your time and re-evaluate what you want several times... i.e. go at it from a few different angles... then go back and pick you favorite of the options. Placement is key, having the stove located as to heat the parts of the house that get the most use. Add a safe good drafting chimney to make burning a pleasure and you would probably with just about any stove you put in there. Stoves aren't like a lot of things on ebay that are less difficult to ship. Your buying window isn't as narrow as a cord of wood delivered, but it's close. Take your time picking and buying a stove (put some money aside if you can and you'll be able to take a deal if you find one) and you'll be sure you have the one you'll be happiest with. You can buy the chimney stuff after you 'know' what you'll need or maybe get some pipe thrown in if you buy a used setup.

The more time you take to consider all the possibilitys the happier you will be in the long run.

I wouldn't advise against starting on that wood pile now though... never can have enough wood.

 

[begreen]

For everybody that has heard the stories about the Consolidated Dutchwest stove that almost sank Vermont Castings. There it is in all its glory.

That's the one, eh? Thanks too BB. Sorry Squ. Glad you had your radar on. Maybe back to a road trip to Rome?

 

[drhiii]

You're right. I was jumping to conclusions about this community which has been warm (pun intended) to newcomers. Have just developed a thick skin based on 27 years (my father ran one of the first online bulletin board systems, so yup, 27 years) of online communicating. And yes, I do love my stove. Like anything, it had a learning curve. A couple of days ago, when it was 0, and we were knocking about in summer shirts, I was a happy bucaroo... and there is nothing like cutting, splitting and burning your own wood.

I hope you find something that fulfills your needs. You might try Craigslist. I recently posted a question about wood stoves and wood to harvest off of properties for free, and was amazed at how many responded.

I will probably get slammed for the following since am new and still learning...

Purchased a Napoleon 1400. Did have existing venting so that was a plus. I found this ugly wood stove online (ask if interested where), saved $240 as it was on sale hence paid approx $900 for it, with glass door. I couldn't be happier. Was burning mediocre wood until I located some oak and fir (Colorado) recently. It is 10 degrees out, we live in a Victorian house built in 1907, 1800 sq ft, insulated but not exactly stellar, and with decent wood, I am constantly damping the thing down to its minimum so we can maintain 78-82 degrees. Otherwise we'd bake... well, not really, I just use far less wood that I was using before with an older stove. Earlier today my missus said, when the snow was flying and it was 20 degrees outside, that she was baking. What amazed me about the stove was how long it maintained heat when the wood had burned down to coals. Easily kept the house warm for 3-4 hours after the wood had burned down to coals. I don't think this stove is that ugly myself... the glass door allows one to view the dancing flames. What I like is everyone in this area is paying $300-$400, some more, a month for utilities just to heat their home, and we are paying $25, mostly for the water heater, or freezing. I love this particular stove, and find it's performance and maintenance, for the low price, dandy. There are so many great stoves out there of course. I just happen to have landed with this one and it has been excellent.

you think someone is going to flame you for saying you love your stove???????

 

[drhiii]

Great story about 'Red'. Have similar feelings towards the line of Saabs I've had in the past. I really miss an '76 I acqired in '93. Thing went everywhere, did everything, got great gas mileage, was a treat to drive on the highway, was the ugliest orange, ever, and it was mine. Gave it away 5 years ago to someone in need and have missed it ever since.

The Napoleon 1400 is turning out to be quite nice. I really wanted simple function over form, for this current house that is... once I got the wood issues sorted out, this recently, when everything comes together, it does very well. The prior stove in the home was ok, but no where near the overall efficiency and ease of managing. And yup... a couple of days ago, we didn't hit -10, only -3, and the snow was blowing sideways, and yup, it was 75 degrees inside, I sat in front of the stove looking longingly into its hearth as my wife watched, concerned, that I had that lilting look of first love, in this case with an inanimate object. She was warm tho so my advances were tolerated... It is a cheap date too. $900 on sale, including door and shipping...

We had a Ford red Ranger truck (named Fred) that the previous owner's daughter had slid into a ditch and dented the bed pretty badly. But it only had 70K on it and I paid. $700. I straightened out the bed with a sledge and a crowbar. Fred was absolutely manual, the only accessory was a kicking aftermarket stereo. Banged up, flat vinyl seats, manual steering, faded red paint all contributed to what some might call a ugly truck. But Fred ran like a top and was a real workhorse. I ended up loving that truck. It was simple, like the trucks in the 60's, got great gas mileage and I never worried about rocks and gravel scratching up the bed. Like a woodstove, a finely functioning machine has its own beauty.

I've heard only good things about the Napoleon 1400. It's a nice value. With the leg kit, it doesn't look bad at all to me. When it's -10 and blowing sideways outside, yet 70 inside, that stove has to look even more beautiful.

(broken link removed to http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Webshare/wood/wood%20stoves/1100PL_1400PL.html)

 

[Gooserider]

I wouldn't advise against starting on that wood pile now though... never can have enough wood.

I would advise one caution about starting a wood pile before you get a stove though. Namely different stoves have different maximum lengths for splits, and also the optimum length varies. Cut things to long, and you won't be able to get them in the stove. Then you have to cut them a second time, which is a LOT of extra work, and is likely to leave you with lots of really short little chunks. If you cut to short, then fitting is no problem, but you might have trouble filling the stove efficiently so as to get the maximum burn time. Also the length you decide to cut to will influence the layout of your woodshed or pile, which could be difficult to change. However if you have to pick a length, it is probably better to go on the short side.

I don't know if there is a real good rule about "optimum length" but it seems to me like it's generally about 2" less than the maximum spec. This fills the firebox well, while still allowing a bit of slop for variations in cut length and just getting the logs stacked for a burn.

I would reccomend either making up a "short list" of likeley candidate stoves and picking an optimal length from that, or just collecting wood and leaving it in logs as long as you can handle w/o trying to cut to rounds or splitting it.

Gooserider

 

[squngel]

Growing up my parents bought a second home on Prince Edward Island Canada (think cold, long winters). The home was built around 1890. Ballooned framed, beautiful trim, hardwood floors, etc. A very nice home, astetically speaking. Insulation was pitiful. Since they lived in a historical district they could not change the front of the house at all. However, all other windows got changed out with more efficient units. Also, they had someone come in and blow insulation into the walls. This was done by cutting a 2 or 3 inch hole top and bottom of the wall, then the blown in insulation was forced into the cavity using a machine. It made a HUGE difference having the exterior walls insulated and they did not have to tear apart all the old plaster walls either.

-Kevin

It sounds like a beautiful house (post pics?) and thank you for the suggestions.

As for this house, most of the windows have been replaced. A few haven't but do have storm windows on them. The worst door and window are in the bedroom. We keep the door to it closed during the day and only heat it only at night. I know it is possible to have our walls injected with insulation. I have not been able to bring myself to do this because it seems silly to me when we have so much heat escaping out the top of the house. Also I have visions of that orange foam just squirting out all over the place (you actually see that a lot around here, though I bet I'm looking at botched diy's.) AND the house has so many projecting rooms that the linear footage of wall we'd have to inject would be big compared to the actual square footage of interior space it was insulating.
___
( __[ ] __ _____
[__ __] [ ]
[__] vs. [_____] ... or something like that.

Maybe it would still be worth it. I am very picky about the money I put into this house because the house will never be nice. I got it for a great price, though, and I enjoy living in it. The best thing about it is that the little rental unit pays almost all the mortgage (it would pay ALL of it if we had it on a 30 year note, but we've got a 15, so we pitch in a few bucks) At this point though I am more inclined to see how the stove does first. The past few winters we have not paid over $1000 total per season for heat, since it is possible to spot-heat with the blue flames, close off areas we are not using when we aren't using them, etc.-- we couldn't do that with the old forced-air furnace arrangement. I am also pretty good about doing the little stuff like keeping the old floor vents covered, hanging quilts in front of seldom-used drafty doors, even.... stacking all our dirty clothes in front of the hollow door to our now-unheated basement I think the really stinky ones might keep drafts out better.

sorry so rambling.
edit: my little ascii art suffered in transit there was supposed to be a celtic cross shape one one side and a box on the other.

 

[Gooserider]

As for this house, most of the windows have been replaced. A few haven't but do have storm windows on them. The worst door and window are in the bedroom. We keep the door to it closed during the day and only heat it only at night. I know it is possible to have our walls injected with insulation. I have not been able to bring myself to do this because it seems silly to me when we have so much heat escaping out the top of the house. Also I have visions of that orange foam just squirting out all over the place (you actually see that a lot around here, though I bet I'm looking at botched diy's.) AND the house has so many projecting rooms that the linear footage of wall we'd have to inject would be big compared to the actual square footage of interior space it was insulating.

       ___
(  __[    ] __             _____
   [__     __]             [        ]
       [__]            vs. [_____]  ... or something like that.

Maybe it would still be worth it. I am very picky about the money I put into this house because the house will never be nice. I got it for a great price, though, and I enjoy living in it. The best thing about it is that the little rental unit pays almost all the mortgage (it would pay ALL of it if we had it on a 30 year note, but we've got a 15, so we pitch in a few bucks) At this point though I am more inclined to see how the stove does first. The past few winters we have not paid over $1000 total per season for heat, since it is possible to spot-heat with the blue flames, close off areas we are not using when we aren't using them, etc.-- we couldn't do that with the old forced-air furnace arrangement. I am also pretty good about doing the little stuff like keeping the old floor vents covered, hanging quilts in front of seldom-used drafty doors, even.... stacking all our dirty clothes in front of the hollow door to our now-unheated basement I think the really stinky ones might keep drafts out better.

One of the things that can help is insulated fabric drapes / blinds - IF they are tight fitting to the window / door in question. For instance, these folks make a system to do roman shades that are supposed to add as much as R-5-6 worth of insulation. This is the place that makes the fabric and most of the supplies, (broken link removed to http://www.warmcompany.com/wwpage.html)

As to the blown in insulation, I dont think they use the "orange foam" for that. The orange foam is usally the spray can stuff that is used only in small spaces - it's to expensive to use it all over, and some claim it has noxious fumes. I've never had the blown in stuff done, but my understanding is that they basically remove a couple strips of siding and open up each wall cavity, then blow that grey shredded paper stuff in to fill the spaces. After they do that, the wall cavities are sealed back up and the siding re-installed. The job isn't supposed to be visible when done. It requres a certain amount of special equipment and knowhow, so it isn't a DIY project, however it is supposedly not to expensive as such things go.

More significantly if you are having roof losses, I'd look at getting some additional cellulose insulation blown into your attic spaces. I can understand how it can be a pain to get to some spaces, (our house has FIVE different attic spaces, when I networked the house, I had to pull cable through four of them!) but my understanding is that they don't need huge access to blow in the insulation.

edit: my little ascii art suffered in transit there was supposed to be a celtic cross shape one one side and a box on the other.

I don't know why, but the reply window actually put your ASCII art back the way it should have been. As a tip, many PHP boards will do a better job of preserving your stuff if you use the 'code' flags to enclose it. Another trick can be to use periods instead of spaces, the dots aren't that disruptive, and are less likely to be 'condensed'.

Gooserider

 

[squngel]

Update on stove search: I contacted carpniels and his Castine looks to be a great stove at a great price, but once I factor in trip expenses, I'm clearly overbudget.

I would still love to own a Jotul but just don't believe I will find one I can afford. Honestly, the more I think about that ugly Englander, the more beautiful it gets. Right now it's at the top of the list, and my plan is to quit wasting my time on ebay and simply wait a few months and hope one goes on sale near me. The only reservation I have about it at this point is longevity. Englander owners, how many years from now do you expect to still be using these stoves?

 

[elkimmeg]

Consider this What if you could get a 2 year old used wood stove used sparingly that retails for over $2000 today for about 700 to $800
Would you consider that a deal?

What you would have to also figure in is the cost of bulk freight from coast to coast Used on Ebay I have seen similar stoves sell for $1200 and considered them to be a fair deal.
There is such a stove not too far from me that I could help you accquire and p drop off at a freight terminal you would have to do the research for freight cost from zip code 02081 to factor whether is is a decent deal. The other thing you would benifit by having me inspect it before money is exchanged
Carp's stove is also a good bet

(broken link removed to http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=160057427084&rd=1&rd=1)

 

[coldinnj]

As to insulation. If you can get access to the crawl spaces of attic I would recommend fiberglass attic blanket instead of blown in.
As to the walls it is very DIY possible if even a little bit handy. You can get a siding zip ripper for about $10 to r & R the siding. The openings needed are very small for blowing in the insulation. The machine is often rented "free" of charge from stores such as Home Depot or Lowes if you are buying the insulation from them. I do not recommend the cellulose as much as some others as it is treated to reduce flammability and deterioration which some claim the treatment tends to come off with moisture absorption. Not sure if true. Different claims from different sources. Many other products for blowing in though.
Important to remember to do any other renovations such as concealed wiring runs, plumbing etc. first. No fun after the walls is packed. Also don't over pack the walls. Insulation needs to be loose, not packed to work effectively.