Getting harrased by solar panel sales people due to my solar potential with aerial imaging. .

[Brian26]

If you don't have shading issues I would ask what a regular string inverter with standard panels would cost versus adding the solaredge optimizers on each panel. The reason is similar to microinverters, why have specialized electronics mounted in the hottest spot of the house?

I will ask them about it. They look to be around $70 each online so I would imagine the savings would be around $1500 if they were eliminated. If they could be I would maybe ask about adding more panels. Our budget is 10k and I think that extra $1500 could add a bunch more panels.

Are they installed specifically for shading issues? Is there some other benefit in using them? I do have some shading issues but the installer said my setup was close to perfect. Said I was an A with an A+ being perfect. He used some solar device on a pole and took a bunch of measurements. It happened to be a really sunny day when he was here.

Another question I can't seem to find is if I eliminate the optimizers. Would the connections be proprietary to the solaredge inverter assuming they just run wires to basement from the panels where it will be? Solaredge seems pretty stable from what I have read but would another inverter from a different company be able to be connected in the rare case they go under. The issues I have read online about enphase has me avoiding them. Also, my neighbor who has his panels installed ago 9 years has had no issues with his solaredge inverter that the same company installed.

I really appreciate all your knowledgeable input.

 

[Brian26]

If you don't have shading issues I would ask what a regular string inverter with standard panels would cost versus adding the solaredge optimizers on each panel. The reason is similar to microinverters, why have specialized electronics mounted in the hottest spot of the house?

I have some minor shading issues according to the company when they were here. They did a detailed site survey as other companies have that included using some device on a pole to measure the sun and any shading issues. It was really sunny day when he was here. He said that I was pretty close to having a near perfect setup but not quite perfect. Are shading issues the only benefit to using optimizers? They look to go for around $70 each online. Eliminating them could buy me maybe $1500 more in panels and keep the budget under 10k. I will definitely ask them for more information about them.

Another thing I can't seem to find is in the rare event solaredge goes under would the wiring from the panels to the inverter in the basement be universal. Would I be able to use another companies inverter? I assume it would just be some wiring coming down and the panels seem to be universal. From my research solardege seems much more stable than enphase who uses their own proprietary connection system as you pointed out in an earlier thread. Also, my neighbors as well as 2 other people I know in town have had the same company install their solar and have had zero issues with their solaredge inverters. My neighbors was installed 9 years ago. I have talked to a few people that had issues with their enphase microinverters having to be replaced under warranty in the first year or two.

I appreciate all your input peakbagger. Thanks again.

 

[peakbagger]

I haven't messed with them directly. I think that unless they install panels with the optimizers integrated into the panel that they are standard panels that plug into the optimizer and then the optimizer leads are daisy chained in series back to the inverter. The inverter is definitely custom as it lacks a MPPT circuit as the each optimizer is acting as a MPPT plus its communicating with the optimizers to do rapid shutdown. They claim its more plug and play for the installer. I don't know if the optimizer would get in the way of trying to run the strings with a regular inverter. They claim that since they regulate the voltage to a set amount that they can run longer strings. I expect if they go out of production and you had to put in a different brand inverter you would might need to remove the optimizers and possible reconfigure the strings.

The major benefit is shaded panels, one shaded panel in a string can pull down the production of the entire string. The worst shading is a horizontal strip across the base of the panel but even a vent stack will do it. The horizontal strip only needs to be a couple of inches wide. The optimizer can effectively jump out a panel if its shaded or is not working. The communication also raises a alarm on the monitoring software to let you know ne is not working. There is also a new requirement which may or may not be adopted in CT for a Rapid Shutdown Device. Solaredges can send a signal to the optimizers to shut off the voltage to meet the requirements but a standard inverter wouldn't have this capability so you would need to run two new control wires up to a junction box on the roof and by a RSD kit to get this functionality back.

The quick story on string calculations is standard solar panels have a rated voltage at a certain temp and that voltage varies with temperature, there is coefficient for each panel that can be used to calculate the highest voltage which is always higher the colder it gets so one to the needed items for the calculations is the lowest expected temperature. http://www.canadiansolar.com/downlo...an_Solar-Datasheet-CS6KM_Quartech-v5.3_na.pdf The highest temp is also needed to calculate the lowest voltage. That gives you a range of voltages for each panel. You then need to multiply the high and low voltage times the number of panels until you end up within the input voltage range of the inverter. If you don't have enough panels in the string, the voltage could get too low in summer and the inverter will not work. If on a cold winters day the voltages are too high the inverter could cook and the warranty is void. Inverter manufactures used to have free sizing programs that would ask what type of panel you have, your high and low temps and would figure out the best array configuration. I think the opitmizers force the panels to put out a steady voltage no matter what the temperature so I think they can put panels on the string without worrying about cooking the inverter on cold day.

MPPT Maximum Power Point Tracking is pretty tricky, there is software in the MPPT which is constantly changing the voltage across the string to see if the wattage increases, This squeezes the maximum power for any given sun condition, the optimizers do this at the module level but the reality is unless one is shaded they all act alike. The second tricky part is once they have the panel putting out maximum wattage the circuit adjusts the voltage being sent to the string so the voltage in the string doesn't move around. Some standard inverters have dual MPPT input so they split the array in half. Looking quickly at your panels voltage they are doing two separate strings of ten panels each which would work with a standard dual MPPT inverter.

So it looks like Solaredge is partially proprietary but worst case is you could probably salvage the panels and possibly the wiring but could need to do some reconfiguration. A SMA 6000 or Fronius Primo are standard inverters.

By the way I found this video on MPPT, Solar Edge and microinverters at Alt E store. https://www.altestore.com/store/inverters/grid-tie-inverters-c560/

 

[Circus]

Has anyone crunched the numbers on falling prices vs electricity produced? Say $1000 drop per year would pay a large portion of my electric bill. Besides, if the utilities keep horsing around with their fixed fees and reimbursements, 5 years from now, off grid systems may be the norm.
There's no hurry, so don't let them pressure you until your ready.

 

[Brian26]

Got my financing in place and am going to put my deposit down on Monday. The total cost after state incentive/federal rebate for my 5.4 Kwh system will be $9798 or about $1.80 watt. Had many site surveys done and the local installers where the cheapest and best to deal with. I choose the one right in my town that has been in business since 1989 and was CT's first established solar company.

The big national Solar companies just plain out suck. Their pricing is thousands more and the sales pressure is terrible. Many of them would just show back up at my house without an appointment saying weren't we scheduled for today. I had you scheduled in my phone calendar. Many also would not provide anything for you to review. They would just show you some numbers on a ipad. I just read an article on how the sales of ppa's/leases is plummeting like a rock and these big solar companies are taking a beating. People now realize its a way better option to take a loan out and purchase them yourself and the local installers are crushing them in prices.

My numbers are essentially going to be a wash were my annual electric savings are estimated pretty close to my annual loan payment. I took out a 7 year loan but plan on paying it off much quicker. I have big wedding expense coming up this year otherwise we would have just paid cash.

For those thinking of financing use a credit union. I have been with mine all my life and their rates are awesome.

I did a home equity loan for 7 years (the estimated payoff time on the panels) for 3.74%

10k at 3.74. Monthly payment $135.49. Total interest would be $1,381 if you paid over the 10 year span.

Now onto the waiting game of the months they told me it's probably going to take to get them up and running. Utility approval, CT incentive approval, town approval etc.

 

[Brian26]

I am underway with the permitting and should have the panels up soon.

One thing I noticed in my contract is they guarantee production where if my panels don't produce a certain amount in a year they will pay the difference. I am estimated to produce 6478 kwh a year. They are showing if my panels don't produce 5,830 kwh in the first year they will pay me .16 kwh for the difference. The scale goes up over the years. At year ten they guarantee 5,373 at .20 kwh.

I don't think the other companies I got quotes from offered this. Is this normally offered by most companies? Seems like its an awesome benefit to have where my long term numbers and savings are guaranteed. Or are they just really conservative with the numbers where they know I will produce much more?

 

[peakbagger]

That is nice kicker. Yes they could be conservative with their numbers which is a good thing. At $1.80 a watt that's a great price. Too bad you couldn't put solar panels on the wedding registry, a heck of lot nicer gift than silverware (your fiancé may not agree )

Of course we could have a big volcano blow up somewhere like Pinatubo in 1991 fill up the atmosphere for a year or two and cut down on the amount of sunlight coming in.

I look forward to seeing the final results

 

[woodgeek]

I am underway with the permitting and should have the panels up soon.

One thing I noticed in my contract is they guarantee production where if my panels don't produce a certain amount in a year they will pay the difference. I am estimated to produce 6478 kwh a year. They are showing if my panels don't produce 5,830 kwh in the first year they will pay me .16 kwh for the difference. The scale goes up over the years. At year ten they guarantee 5,373 at .20 kwh.

I don't think the other companies I got quotes from offered this. Is this normally offered by most companies? Seems like its an awesome benefit to have where my long term numbers and savings are guaranteed. Or are they just really conservative with the numbers where they know I will produce much more?

I'd vote for conservative and you'll never need this money.

 

[Brian26]

Panels are installed. Wiring is going to be completed tomorrow and should be up and running soon. Can't wait to start producing power.

 

[peakbagger]

Looking good. Plenty of room for more panels

 

[sportbikerider78]

We were contacted about converting our 20 acre fields in upstate to a small farm. Said they would pay $25k/yr lease.

I don't think so.

 

[Brian26]

Wiring is done. Town is inspecting it on Friday and then I just have to wait for my net meter to get installed by my poco.

The meter to the right of the inverter is a cellular meter that the CT Green Bank requires to be installed to monitor my production. They are the ones that gave me the generous state incentive.

I lucked out were I had to move all my electrical for a deck install last year. Thankfully the electrician installed a disconnect on the new meter box so they were able to do a line side tap. They didn't have to touch my panel and all the wiring is outside. The only wiring they had to do inside was to run a Cat 5 wire to my router for the internet.

I did read about installing the inverter outside vs inside and the pros and cons. I'm not to worried as they included the extended 20 year warranty from Solaredge on the inverter with the install.

During testing after the install in the late afternoon it was producing around 4600 watts. The system is a 5.4 kwh system.

Can't wait to finally hit the switch and turn it on.

 

[peakbagger]

Wow a preinstalled line side tap. Really makes it easy. If the inverter is exposed and in direct sun, the standard recommendation is to put a small overhang over it to keep the it drier and keep it out of direct sun. I expect if you know someone with a sheetmetal shop they can bend you up an overhang and just slot under the siding and slide it up in.

Out of curiosity, did they install surge protection devices in the system? They are not code required but highly recommended. I have one on the main panel to hopefully protect me from a utility spike and the two Fronious systems have SPDs at the combiner boxes mounted near the panels. I had Delta on my older Fronius and it still got cooked by utility surge so I switched to Midnight Solar SPDs http://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=23&productCatName=SPD

I am fan of electrical wireway (AKA gutters) http://andrewsfabrication.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/wireway.jpg to neaten things up but expect solar installers go for what is quick. Looks like they didn't have a PVC blanket and used standard off the shelf preformed PVC fittings. A pull elbow http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pACE3-17458941enh-z7.jpg in place of the long radius 90 and two pull elbows to replace the LBs would have cleaned things up a bit while still using off the shelf fittings and repunching the main panel to get rid of the offset also would have helped make it look nicer. What they did works just as well as a neat installation, it strictly aesthetics.

As an example I have three inverters of differing vintages. I don't have a line size tap and due to limitations with the main panel I have to run all the inverters outputs to a subpanel and then output it to one breaker in the main panel I also have an exterior utility disconnect switch that shuts down all three inverter outputs on the outlet of the subpanel. If I used conduit it would have been a maze of conduit. With wireway I just do a vertical drop down from the components and run the wires to where they need to go in the wireway. I wanted to run the copper ground wire inside the wireway but my electrical friends strongly suggested that it run on the outside in case of an indirect hit from lighting. The analog meter and the black wattmeter in the corner is the "high tech" monitoring available when the white inverter went in about 14 years ago. There is also a built in flashing red light that will flash codes on the inverter. One note is that recent code requires that the wireway be segregated between AC and DC wiring, I believe there is an available internal barrier that covers this but mine doesn't have it as it was installed during a prior code cycle.

 

[Brian26]

Wow a preinstalled line side tap. Really makes it easy. If the inverter is exposed and in direct sun, the standard recommendation is to put a small overhang over it to keep the it drier and keep it out of direct sun. I expect if you know someone with a sheetmetal shop they can bend you up an overhang and just slot under the siding and slide it up in.

Out of curiosity, did they install surge protection devices in the system? They are not code required but highly recommended. I have one on the main panel to hopefully protect me from a utility spike and the two Fronious systems have SPDs at the combiner boxes mounted near the panels. I had Delta on my older Fronius and it still got cooked by utility surge so I switched to Midnight Solar SPDs http://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=products&productCat_ID=23&productCatName=SPD

I am fan of electrical wireway (AKA gutters) http://andrewsfabrication.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/wireway.jpg to neaten things up but expect solar installers go for what is quick. Looks like they didn't have a PVC blanket and used standard off the shelf preformed PVC fittings. A pull elbow http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pACE3-17458941enh-z7.jpg in place of the long radius 90 and two pull elbows to replace the LBs would have cleaned things up a bit while still using off the shelf fittings and repunching the main panel to get rid of the offset also would have helped make it look nicer. What they did works just as well as a neat installation, it strictly aesthetics.

As an example I have three inverters of differing vintages. I don't have a line size tap and due to limitations with the main panel I have to run all the inverters outputs to a subpanel and then output it to one breaker in the main panel I also have an exterior utility disconnect switch that shuts down all three inverter outputs on the outlet of the subpanel. If I used conduit it would have been a maze of conduit. With wireway I just do a vertical drop down from the components and run the wires to where they need to go in the wireway. I wanted to run the copper ground wire inside the wireway but my electrical friends strongly suggested that it run on the outside in case of an indirect hit from lighting. The analog meter and the black wattmeter in the corner is the "high tech" monitoring available when the white inverter went in about 14 years ago. There is also a built in flashing red light that will flash codes on the inverter. One note is that recent code requires that the wireway be segregated between AC and DC wiring, I believe there is an available internal barrier that covers this but mine doesn't have it as it was installed during a prior code cycle.

They didn't install a surge protector but I will look into installing one. Since I have a disconnect on my meter I can turn off the power easily going into the house. Makes any panel work a breeze.

Found a new use for the drone. This was taken just before sunset and it looks like only one panel gets minor shading issues from the chimney and satellite dish. Pretty cool to see it from above.

 

[jebatty]

Very cool indeed. Congratulations. Your estimate of 6478 kWh/year is about "right on" for my area as well for a 5.4 kW system. My site is largely shade free but I estimate a 4% annual energy loss resulting from shading, almost all at the low sun in Nov-Feb. For a mostly shade-free site at 47* north latitude where I live I use a multiplier of 1.2 - 1.3 of the DC rating of the panels to estimate total annual energy production: 5.4 system x 1.2 = 6480 kWh/yr.

BTW, yesterday was almost cloud-free and production for the day was 85kWh on my 12.3 kW system.

 

[peakbagger]

Nice Drone shot, Another toy I want to buy. Looks to me like the dish is more of an issue than the chimney. I expect moving it wouldn't be a big issue if you really wanted to maximize production. The typical approach is to shoot for no shading plus or minus 4 hours of solar noon and given sunset is closer to 6 hours off of noon I don't think its a major impact to production. BTW, the biggest impact to a panel is a strip of shade running horizontally across the panel versus a vertical strip of shade but both make difference. Note there are a lot of "studies" on the internet published on shading to ultimately justify the extra cost and complexity for microinverters. Academic studies are out there, they just are far more boring

Once you let the dust settle, it sure looks like you have plenty of room to expand. Depending on your net metering contract there is lot to be said to get a mini split to cover shoulder season heating and AC in the summer. This usually only makes sense if you carry forward your surplus, a lot of contracts make you cash your excess production at a wholesale rate on a yearly basis and depending on that cash out date you may not be able to make it work.

I must admit my original array which is hung from a wall does have an issue with shading from a roof overhang in early and late morning as the sun makes its way to the summer solstice. One of joys of living near 45 degrees latitude is that the sun angle varies significantly from winter to summer (which is what gives us seasonal variation). If you look at the tables or a sun plot you will see that as the solstice approaches the sun actually rises north of east which means fixed south facing panels lose out. My wall array and my ground mount miss out on that early morning sun but my roof mount which is at something less than 30 degrees off horizontal actually kicks in production a bit earlier in the AM during the summer as it can take advantage of that early morning dose of sun. That is quickly offset by lower panel efficiency later in the day due to far hotter roof than my pole mount.



The trade off on lost summer production is that snow sliding off my roof panels clears the wall mounted panels when it slides off the roof when I am set at the winter angle. If you look carefully you can see the holes in the unistrut that corresponds to winter, summer/fall and summer. The bottom hole is "hurricane mode" which stows the panels right up across the bay window. One unplanned benefit of this install is in the summer the sun shades the front wall and really cuts down on AC usage.

On my various drives I occasionally see All Earth double tracking pole mount arrays, it always initially strikes me odd to see them in the early morning and late evening pointing in what initially looks to be the wrong direction. If I drive by later in the day they look right. The standard rule of thumb is dual axis trackers will put out 30% more power per installed watt but given the cheap price of solar panels there is no way to justify the cost of the tracker even when the renewable incentives were effectively written by the owner of the company that manufactures the trackers (I.E. Vermont).

 

[Brian26]

Passed the town inspection. Now just waiting on the net meter to be installed.

The electrician said I could flip it on but be careful. He said that they used to turn them on after passing the town inspection but they ran into a few people getting charged for sending power back as their meters couldn't distinguish the power flow.

I turned it on and have been monitoring my whole house energy monitor and meter. It looks like if I balance my production with demand I am fine.

This is what my poco sent me. Looks like the only concern is sending back power and getting billed for it.

I know I should wait but the urge to flip the switch was just too much.

You are approved as a Net Metering customer therefore, your
delivered and received kWh’s will be measured separately. You
should not operate your Generating Facility prior to the
installation of the net meter. Unapproved operation may cause
inaccurate metering data and result in additional charges on your
electric bill. Eversource cannot prevent or rectify billing errors
due to inaccurate meter data that results from operation of your
Generating Facility prior to installation of the requisite net
meter.

 

[peakbagger]

Get ready to scratch you head a bit when you get your first bill from Eversource. One side is the total power you received from the gird including any net metered power, the other side if the total production sent to the grid which would be your panel output minus and power being used internal to the house before it heads out to the grid. The calculation subtracts the two. It will not line up with net production reported by your inverter as the inverter does care where the power is going its just telling you how much you produced.

If you are anxious to run it, its not hard to check the meter to see if its programed with a ratchet so that they bill you for PV export.

Looking at the meter photo you have an Itron, they reportedly can be programmed to be pretty dumb and may run backwards. They normally have one channel so there should just be one value displayed. If you see it alternate between two different values, it most likelyis a bi-direction meter and you have to wait for Eversource unless you were real lucky. There is a LCD display to the right of the number that should have an arrow pointing left or right. When you are buying power, the arrow points in one direction and when you are selling power the arrow should go in the other direction. Turn off all the breakers in the house including the PV system and look at the value on the meter. Turn on a high draw breaker like an electric oven and turn on the oven. Wait until the digit changes, it should go up which means you bought a KWhr from the utility. Note which direction the arrow is pointing. Now turn off the oven, and turn on the PV on a sunny day until the digit changes, if the number increases your meter has a "ratchet" that regards power going either way as purchased power. (the arrow may or may not change direction) In that case you get to wait for the utility to come swap the meter. If on the other hand if there is single reading and it goes down with the PV on you should be fine.

 

[Brian26]

Get ready to scratch you head a bit when you get your first bill from Eversource. One side is the total power you received from the gird including any net metered power, the other side if the total production sent to the grid which would be your panel output minus and power being used internal to the house before it heads out to the grid. The calculation subtracts the two. It will not line up with net production reported by your inverter as the inverter does care where the power is going its just telling you how much you produced.

If you are anxious to run it, its not hard to check the meter to see if its programed with a ratchet so that they bill you for PV export.

Looking at the meter photo you have an Itron, they reportedly can be programmed to be pretty dumb and may run backwards. They normally have one channel so there should just be one value displayed. If you see it alternate between two different values, it most likelyis a bi-direction meter and you have to wait for Eversource unless you were real lucky. There is a LCD display to the right of the number that should have an arrow pointing left or right. When you are buying power, the arrow points in one direction and when you are selling power the arrow should go in the other direction. Turn off all the breakers in the house including the PV system and look at the value on the meter. Turn on a high draw breaker like an electric oven and turn on the oven. Wait until the digit changes, it should go up which means you bought a KWhr from the utility. Note which direction the arrow is pointing. Now turn off the oven, and turn on the PV on a sunny day until the digit changes, if the number increases your meter has a "ratchet" that regards power going either way as purchased power. (the arrow may or may not change direction) In that case you get to wait for the utility to come swap the meter. If on the other hand if there is single reading and it goes down with the PV on you should be fine.

Thanks peakbagger for the info. It looks like as long as I use what power my panels are sending into my house I am fine based on my observations with my meter and Effergy energy monitor.

Peakbagger- To respond to your earlier post. I have a forced air Carrier Infinity heat pump system with oil backup. Running at full output it pulls about 2.5kwhs with most of that being the blower at almost 1kwh. But it has multiple stages on the compressor and fan so the output varies. With the panels I think the savings are going to be huge.

I am kind of taken back on how much power I am cranking out right now with the current cloudy/rainy conditions. Almost 1 kwh! Can't wait for the forecasted sun and heat next week to see how it performs. I think you are in New England as well peakbagger?

as well and this weather has been terrible.

 

[peakbagger]

Yes I am in northern NH. Its been pretty dreary up in Northern NH of late but this is usually the sweet spot time of year, cool temps and long days means lots of production. I will be adjusting my panels to summer angle next week.

 

[Brian26]

A little over 2 weeks in and I am impressed by the production so far. I have yet to experience a completely cloudless day and I am sure others in New England can relate where the weather has been pretty terrible lately. There has been little to no sun the last 2 weeks besides the last 3 days.

June is off to a great start. Keep in mind this is only a 5.4 kwh system. I am thinking on a cloudless day 35-40 kwh is possible.

 

[jebatty]

I never paid so much attention to sunny days as I do now with the PV. The last 7 days (May 31-Jun 6) have been nearly clear every day, for a total of 552kWh and a daily average of 79kWh on our 12.3kW system. So far this year 2017 production is running above average. The graph below show Jun 2017 only for the first 6 days.

April - May 2017 have alternated between strings of very sunny days and then the same with very cloudy/rainy days. June has started out very sunny.

 

[Brian26]

We just got our first electric bill. 2 weeks in and 98 kwhs in surplus and $12.83 just for the connection charge. Here in CT with the highest electricity prices in the lower 48 this a welcome relief.

 

[Brian26]

6 months with panels and here is my electric bill history. All I have been charged is the $19.25 connection charge with a negative kwh usage. It is working out well

 

[peakbagger]

Now get ready for snow season and see how well the panels clean off after a snow storm. Keep an eye out for anything that can get crushed by snow sliding off the panels. Sometimes it just melts in place but occasionally it sits there and then goes whump.