Geothermal - Waterfurnace 5 review

[gitmo234]

45K for a $560 a month heat and hot water bill, wow. I spend about $850 annually for heat and hot water for 3000 SQ ft of poorly insulated 3 story house with a coal boiler. No one month is ever more than $170 for 25 million BTUs . For that much cash you should be able to super insulate and heat the place with a candle. Installers around here require that you upgrade the insulation levels dramatically before they install anything.

Very proud of you. $25k was the furnace system, the other part were necessary improvements that would have prohibited any system from working other than radiator heating, which would struggle some with my main living room being close to being 1000 square feet by itself with 35 foot ceilings, and one wall being nothing but a fireplace and windows.

Also, my load is 90 million vs your 25 million, which is close to 4x your amount. My bill is less than 4x yours.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Very proud of you. $25k was the furnace system, the other part were necessary improvements that would have prohibited any system from working other than radiator heating, which would struggle some with my main living room being close to being 1000 square feet by itself with 35 foot ceilings, and one wall being nothing but a fireplace and windows.

Also, my load is 90 million vs your 25 million, which is close to 4x your amount. My bill is less than 4x yours.

Im talking 25 million FOR 1 MONTH not the whole season Im sure your load is not 90 million BTUs for1 month

 

[Seasoned Oak]

My annual heating load is 125 million BTUs

 

[gitmo234]

Per month is around 22 million, and I am still working out cheaper, warmer, better quality air, less work and less complaining from my wife with this system. I can also leave it unattended for several days to several weeks without using an alternate source or having neighbors load pellets into the furnace.

Now that the auxiliary heat, my heating portion of the electric bill will probably be comparable to yours

 

[CRE10]

Personally I'd shut the breaker off to the strip heat unless you go out of town. Monitor water temps and see how it keeps up. What are you paying per KWH? Around here I can't really get my bill any cheaper than $120 a month when I burn 24-7 due to higher winter rates then in the summer with geo ac running I'm about $125 for around 2000 sq feet with spray foam as a single person.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I like Geo but the numbers just dont work. My friend went with it about 5 yrs ago,spent 14K for the install. Figures it will take 15-20 yrs or more to pay for it and by that time it may need to be replaced

 

[gitmo234]

Personally I'd shut the breaker off to the strip heat unless you go out of town. Monitor water temps and see how it keeps up. What are you paying per KWH? Around here I can't really get my bill any cheaper than $120 a month when I burn 24-7 due to higher winter rates then in the summer with geo ac running I'm about $125 for around 2000 sq feet with spray foam as a single person.

I've considered the kill switch for the aux. I'll see how it keeps up, when we had single digits it seemed not to keep up, but I didnt give it long to try.

I'm paying .1403 per Kwh. The only time Ive seen bills around $75 was in the spring/fall when nothing was on.

 

[moey]

I like Geo but the numbers just dont work. My friend went with it about 5 yrs ago,spent 14K for the install. Figures it will take 15-20 yrs or more to pay for it and by that time it may need to be replaced

Retrofits are more expensive. Build a new house and plan for geo it costs nearly the same as a conventional gas heating system and traditional A/C system. Factoring in the 30% tax credit for the heat exchanger and equipment.

 

[CRE10]

I've considered the kill switch for the aux. I'll see how it keeps up, when we had single digits it seemed not to keep up, but I didnt give it long to try.

I'm paying .1403 per Kwh. The only time Ive seen bills around $75 was in the spring/fall when nothing was on.

One of the largest manufacturers in the geo industry doesn't believe in strip heat and will not have them in any of his units in his factories or homes. He designs his loop fields so he will never need strip heat. Strip heat kills the efficiencies.

 

[CRE10]

Retrofits are more expensive. Build a new house and plan for geo it costs nearly the same as a conventional gas heating system and traditional A/C system. Factoring in the 30% tax credit for the heat exchanger and equipment.

Air source units have gotten more efficient in the past few years, but geo is still the way to go. The cost difference is the heat exchanger like you said. 30% tax credit and $750 per ton rebate from participating utilities goes a long ways.

 

[moey]

I've considered the kill switch for the aux. I'll see how it keeps up, when we had single digits it seemed not to keep up, but I didnt give it long to try.

I'm paying .1403 per Kwh. The only time Ive seen bills around $75 was in the spring/fall when nothing was on.

You may try some other brands of thermostats I don't have any recommendations I have a ClimateMaster system and ClimateMaster thermostat that would not help you. Im sure if you posted a question on geoexchange.org there are some installers who could recommend something with more options. You may find yourself cold if you shut it off.

Your system seems to be working well and designed well except for the thermostat setup. That fact that you need AUX heat at 15F means your system is not oversize and inefficient. A system sized to accommodate all your heating needs will short cycle and not get anywhere close to the advertised COP's. It also costs a lot more to install.

 

[sesmith]

I just took a look at the instructions on line for your tstat. Wow, what a PITA that one is to figure out. I did read this, which might help:

"Multi-Stage Heat and Cool Control In a multi-stage system, while maintaining setpoint, several factors affect when the next stage energizes, such as load conditions, environmental conditions, P+I control, and home insulation. The next stage energizes when the thermostat senses the previous stage is running at 90% capacity. This operation is droopless control."

So you wouldn't set this tstat up with differential settings. Just make sure you have it set so it knows you have electric backup, and you don't set the compressor lockout to be on with aux heat. You won't be using a lock out setting for the compressor then, and it will continue to run on second stage when aux is on and helping it. With a little luck then, it may just work. There are way too many settings on that tstat that someone like me could screw up. I did see the anticipator settings in there that I mentioned above. Good luck.

 

[sesmith]

I like Geo but the numbers just dont work. My friend went with it about 5 yrs ago,spent 14K for the install. Figures it will take 15-20 yrs or more to pay for it and by that time it may need to be replaced

You can't really make a broad statement like that as it depends on the installer, the cost of electricity, and the cost of your alternatives. In some cases, what you said may be absolutely true. In our case, we did a retrofit, and had to replace all ducting in the house as well. Payback over the alternative (oil) was less than 7 years with the federal incentive. Basically, a no-brainer for us. We installed the system in 2011 and it's been the best upgrade we've ever made to our house.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

You can't really make a broad statement like that as it depends on the installer, the cost of electricity, and the cost of your alternatives. In some cases, what you said may be absolutely true. In our case, we did a retrofit, and had to replace all ducting in the house as well. Payback over the alternative (oil) was less than 7 years with the federal incentive. Basically, a no-brainer for us. We installed the system in 2011 and it's been the best upgrade we've ever made to our house.

Ahhh............... federal incentive .....................why does the system have to be subsidized for the numbers to work. Also just about everything looks better next to oil. Installers in this area make their customers super insulate before they install. Anything performs well after that,even oil. Usually its the intall price that kills it , The Geo itself is very efficient if its done right.

 

[moey]

Ahhh............... federal incentive .....................why does the system have to be subsidized for the numbers to work. Also just about everything looks better next to oil. Installers in this area make their customers super insulate before they install. Anything performs well after that,even oil. Usually its the intall price that kills it , The Geo itself is very efficient if its done right.

There is not a energy industry that does not get some subsidy by the feds. If not now then in the past or in the future depending on who is in charge. Short of cutting down trees yourself in your backyard. Although who pays for replanting trees? The difference is with geothermal is the end consumer gets the subsidy. Geothermal prices would probably go down if they took away the federal incentive installers in my opinion factor in the 30% and then price as to what they feel the consumer can afford.

 

[sesmith]

Ahhh............... federal incentive .....................why does the system have to be subsidized for the numbers to work. Also just about everything looks better next to oil. Installers in this area make their customers super insulate before they install. Anything performs well after that,even oil. Usually its the intall price that kills it , The Geo itself is very efficient if its done right.

After the last 2 winters, just as soon as there's a federal subsidy to move south, I'll be the first to sign up, though we probably don't need a subsidy to encourage mass migration from NY.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

gitmo234 part of the reason your light bill is still so high is that .14 per KWH Did you try a different supplier, im in pa and i get .69 on the generation another 3c for ppl and im around 10c KWH If you could get 10C Kwh your bill would drop considerably.

 

[woodgeek]

To the OP, 90 MMBTU (estimated) is rather high for a 2700 sqft house, even a rancher, in the SE PA climate. My older split level, 2300 sq ft, after energy audit work, uses 60 MMBTU (measured), and I am <40 miles from you and at the same altitude. Before the audit work I used 120 MMBTU.

While your geo installer might be great at HVAC, and might have fixed some obvious problems, without a blower door what he did was not an energy audit.

I am confident you could have a BPI rated inspector come in with a blower door, and a few $k of pro airsealing work could drop your bill 30%. This would be worthwhile on top of your existing work as it would still have good marginal ROI if you are paying $1500-2000/year on heat. And your house would be more comfortable and healthier after the work.

Did your guy do any major airsealing or insulation improvements? Sorry if you said this already.

----------------------------------------------------------

For comparison.....

I ripped out an oil boiler that was costing me $5k/year just for space heat and HW, and spent $17k to put in a 4 ton split ASHP, with all new ductwork and a new 80 gal top of the line HPWH. My heat and hot water are now ~$1500/year, saving $3500/yr, so about a 5 year simple payback.

I tell myself I would have spent $10k to put in central air (the neighbors' cost the year before, with the same house), so the new HVAC really only cost me $7k relative to keeping the oil + adding just CAC, and then I have a 2 year simple payback.

My audit work was very extensive and cost me another $5k for airsealing and insulation, but was paid for by a 10 year 0% loan from PA. That 'Keystone' program is currently defunded, but might come back in the future.