Gasification may solve energy problem ?

[nic89]

I know this is a boiler site and a great one!
I saw this guy on Squawk on the street.

(broken link removed)

His deal is gasification of waste coal to make fuel.

Gasification!

 

[pybyr]

Fischer-Tropsch (which is what this guy is promoting) has been around since at least WWII; I'd rather see the technology applied with renewable feedstocks like biomass. Underground coal mining is a really severe and dangerous undertaking for those who labor at it; pit mines or mountaintop removal leave vast swaths of land, soil, and water permanently changed for the worse.

 

[Rory]

Someone proposed a coal gasification plant on the coast of Maine to replace an older power generating facility. They weren't able to get approval due to the typical concerns with any large plant that tries to site in this state.

 

[EricV]

Duke energy is building at least one now.

(broken link removed to http://www.duke-energy.com/news/releases/2006/nov/2006113002.asp)

 

[pybyr]

Duke energy is building at least one now.

(broken link removed to http://www.duke-energy.com/news/releases/2006/nov/2006113002.asp)

From Duke's press release, it looks to me as if these are newer-technology coal to electric plants, not coal to liquid fuel plants that the original poster was referencing at the start of this thread.

 

[mtnmizer]

The Crow Indian tribe in eastern MT has massive coal reserves, some of the largest
in the world.. They are trying to do a solids to liquids plant. Financing is a big
problem, no one wants to be the first one in the water. The Air Force is also interested
in a plant in MT for their own strategic reserves. The governor of MT is pushing this very
hard. The germans ran in part their war machine on this process, WWI was based
on wood and WWll on coal..very dooable, it's the whole incumbent technology/disruptive inovation thing
IMO

 

[Nofossil]

The Crow Indian tribe in eastern MT has massive coal reserves, some of the largest
in the world.. They are trying to do a solids to liquids plant. Financing is a big
problem, no one wants to be the first one in the water. The Air Force is also interested
in a plant in MT for their own strategic reserves. The governor of MT is pushing this very
hard. The germans ran in part their war machine on this process, WWI was based
on wood and WWll on coal..very dooable, it's the whole incumbent technology/disruptive inovation thing
IMO

It's not new or disruptive technology, as far as I know. It's just really inefficient. There's a rumor that the Germans developed a catalyst near the end of the war that vastly improved the efficiency, but no such catalyst has surfaced yet. I believe South Africa creates nearly all of their diesel and jet fuel from coal.

I for one would rather see us invest our R&D;in 4th generation fission reactors. Near zero environmental impact, potentially very low costs compared to anything else out there. Plus biomass gasification for heating, of course.

 

[mtnmizer]

What I mean is that the established oil companies will do whatever it
takes to protect their position. This is taught in MBA programs..don't
let a disruptive innovation wipe you out..ie Graham Bell vs Western Union..

 

[pybyr]

What I mean is that the established oil companies will do whatever it
takes to protect their position. This is taught in MBA programs..don't
let a disruptive innovation wipe you out..ie Graham Bell vs Western Union..

Except--- note that some of the biggest investors in renewables _are_ the oil companies- ever hear of BP Solar- as in British Petroleum? Or Shell Solar, which, if I understand correctly, acquired the solar side of Siemens semiconductor (a big global player in semiconductors, and photovoltaic solar panels are merely one specialized form of semiconductor).

They (oil companies) may be greedy, but they are not dumb. They're not wedded to an energy source or a particular set of technologies, they're wedded to the role of being the ones that we all need to go to because they control/ supply/ deliver it. And they've got the profits and capital reserves to move into new technologies so that they can become the big players in the up and coming sources.

Which is why wood is so darn appealing to me, especially with the phenomenal leap in efficiency and convenience from gasification. If only I could run my vehicle on wood... (I know it's possible in concept, but it's not yet ready for prime time as a "daily driver" for someone with modern-lifestyle time constraints).

 

[pybyr]

I for one would rather see us invest our R&D;in 4th generation fission reactors. Near zero environmental impact, potentially very low costs compared to anything else out there. Plus biomass gasification for heating, of course.

Regardless of technologies, our country's energy policy seems to repeatedly become contaminated over the years by isotopes of shorttermium, defferium, moronium, and selfinterestium. Repeated recurrences of manifestations of headinsandium. Worst of all is kickbackium- also known as Enronium [Watch the documentary: Enron, the Smartest Guys in the Room, and you'll see that it was not one party or another, but both, that hitched their wagon to Ken Lay).

I spent a lot of time in energy related-fields in the '90s when combined cycle natural gas electric generation plants were the hot item, because NG was cheap at the time (and, admittedly, any combined-cycle plant makes a whole lot more sense than any comparable single-cycle, and NG is clean on emissions). I am no Nobel Economist, but even then I kept asking- if it's so cheap that everyone is shifting to this, is it not to be expected that demand will drive the price up? Then, oops- it did...

Anyone got any good recipes for Wood Parmesan as we surf the tide of recession ?

 

[Eric Johnson]

There were sure times back in the early '80s when I cut wood for a living that I wished you could eat it.

 

[mtnmizer]

The Crow Tribe got federal approval for a solids to liquids plant yesterday--->

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2009/03/14/top/75st_090314_coal.txt

Named the Many Stars CTL plant..I wish them well

Now for a plant to liquify the millions of acres of beetle killed trees waiting to burn.

 

[cguida]

Will (wood) gasification solve the energy crisis?

After looking at the heat-economy of my wife's elementary school, I am beginning to wonder.

The school burned 6550 gallons of heating oil last year. In a modern 80% efficient wood boiler, I figue that to be about 40 cords. Working up 40 cords into gasifier fuel is not a trivial task. By the time you finish paying for all that labor, you wonder. Maybe on this scale, oil is not such a bad idea after all.

 

[mtnmizer]

Will (wood) gasification solve the energy crisis?

After looking at the heat-economy of my wife's elementary school, I am beginning to wonder.

The school burned 6550 gallons of heating oil last year. In a modern 80% efficient wood boiler, I figue that to be about 40 cords. Working up 40 cords into gasifier fuel is not a trivial task. By the time you finish paying for all that labor, you wonder. Maybe on this scale, oil is not such a bad idea after all.

Your correct if the wood fuel is in blocks, although I drive by an old country school every day
with a huge wood boiler out back in the open.

It ran before my time but I have known some who went to
school there and stoked the fire not to mention cutting the wood. No chain saws in those
days----It now sits on a ranch whose current owner went to that school--he now lives in the SW
somewhere and is worth 60-100M. He learned the value of work and applied it well.

But to the point of using wood as a viable fuel for a school I can name several schools
in this area that have converted to wood fuel and have saved the taxpayer a bundle.
The boilers use compressed timber waste, and are very automated.
These schools are in timber producing areas and have a surplus of fuel , 40 cords
is trivial when delivered via semi load in bulk..

Check out Sweden's move towards renewables, specifically wood power to
see the real potential.
It's not the complete answer to the energy quandry but a piece of the solution..Sweden BTW will be all
wood power in less than a decade, including liquids..and they won't be
denuding the forests in the process..keep an open mind.. MM

 

[cguida]

I don't think we dis-agree. And I'm all for the character-building effects of hard labor on the wood pile -- for somebody else.

Its one thing to work up 5 chords in your back yard for your own use -- almost a pleasure. It's something else entirely to work up 40 cords for somebody else. And if you pay somebody to do it, the cost advantage pretty much disappears. And you still have to stack it (twice), and put it in the stove -- none of which gets done for free. Using highly processed fuel with automatied equipment is an answer, but only if the scale is large enough, which this situation probably isn't.

The pulp/kraft paper mill in this area is cloeing. That is the area's only significant business. Three or four hundred thousand cords of wood a year are going to be lookng for a new home. I asked some industial types if this might depress the price of firewood. "Not much," they say. People are not going to cut wood and sell it below cost. They will just go out of business first.

Not a very encouraging picture.

About NE Scandanavia -- friend who bought large amounts of finish foresty equipment got himself a free trip to Finnland. He reports that people have decrative (Finnish counter-flow design -what else?--) masonry heaters in their homes. But they actually heat with surplus electricity from nuclear plants in France. Seems strange, doesn't it?

 

[Der Fuirmeister]

Check out Sweden's move towards renewables, specifically wood power to
see the real potential.
It's not the complete answer to the energy quandry but a piece of the solution..Sweden BTW will be all
wood power in less than a decade, including liquids..and they won't be
denuding the forests in the process..keep an open mind.. MM[/quote]


I'd love to read about it. Do you have a link to a web site?

 

[mtnmizer]

{I’d love to read about it. Do you have a link to a web site? }



Google is your friend--->Fresh off the wire..

(broken link removed to http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-sweden-carbonfreeoeringmar03,0,3023238.story)

There was a story last summer on national televison
about Swedens energy policy, it was pretty interesting--I haven't link tho..

 

[Tree farmer]

Will (wood) gasification solve the energy crisis?

After looking at the heat-economy of my wife's elementary school, I am beginning to wonder.

The school burned 6550 gallons of heating oil last year. In a modern 80% efficient wood boiler, I figue that to be about 40 cords. Working up 40 cords into gasifier fuel is not a trivial task. By the time you finish paying for all that labor, you wonder. Maybe on this scale, oil is not such a bad idea after all.

Its called biomass boilers or (clean chip boilers) all automated feed. I took a tour of a local install in a wholesale greenhouse and it was impressive to say the least especially the 110,000 gallon storage tank. They ran the numbers and it is costing (at current oil prices) around 25% of what heating with oil did. At a price tage of 2.4 million they figure a payback in 4 years at current oil pricing. Biomass Chips is what our forest industry is surviving on right now with the soft log market chips are keeping heads above the water- for the moment. A few NH schools have installed similar clean chip boilers and seem to be operating just fine.
http://www.hurstboiler.com/biomass_boiler_systems/benefits/

 

[Der Fuirmeister]

To answer the original post question, Will Gasification may solve energy problem ? No, not alone. But along with other cleaner / cheaper forms of energy it can.

I say cheaper because without it costing less, use of dirty fuels will not change.

 

[mtnmizer]

Will (wood) gasification solve the energy crisis?

the time you finish paying for all that labor, you wonder. Maybe on this scale, oil is not such a bad idea after all.

Its called biomass boilers or (clean chip boilers) all automated feed. I took a tour of a local install in a wholesale greenhouse and it was impressive to say the least especially the 110,000 gallon storage tank. They ran the numbers and it is costing (at current oil prices) around 25% of what heating with oil did. At a price tage of 2.4 million they figure a payback in 4 years at current oil pricing. Biomass Chips is what our forest industry is surviving on right now with the soft log market chips are keeping heads above the water- for the moment. A few NH schools have installed similar clean chip boilers and seem to be operating just fine.
http://www.hurstboiler.com/biomass_boiler_systems/benefits/

The quoted article is what I was refering to, there's at least two other towns with wood fired
boilers heating the schools that I know about. Darby being the smallest. One town has had
some air polution problems and the boiler maker was fined heavily. Not sure how it
was resloved.

When a landowner in MT logs off some timber he or his logger has to post a cash bond to DNRC to
make sure the slash is taken care of. When the slash is either burned or chipped the bond
is released. Private use is exempt. Right now is when the slash is usually burned, but not
much burning is going on because most is being chipped and hauled off. For the landowner it's
financially a wash, the loging company gets it for the taking. I watched the chippers work on my
neighbors place last summer, they had 100 acres of waste done in about a week. Pretty amazing
to watch a good sized log get fed in to that thing and not even a burp.

The part that has the most interest is that this has no carbon footprint, which sounds like
thats going to be a big concern in the near future.

 

[Hansson]

About NE Scandanavia -- friend who bought large amounts of finish foresty equipment got himself a free trip to Finnland. He reports that people have decrative (Finnish counter-flow design -what else?--) masonry heaters in their homes. But they actually heat with surplus electricity from nuclear plants in France. Seems strange, doesn't it?

It`s a big diffrent between finland and sweden. Finland have not do much to move towards renewables. They are bulding nuclearplants and wind power is not big there.
The heating oil is much cheaper there to

Fond some video here.The 2 first
http://www.icue.com/portal/site/iCu...weden&selectedValue=ADVANCED&showResults=yes#

 

[Piker]

I think it's important for us to keep our minds open to all the possibilities for energy. Too often we tend to align ourselves with one camp or the other without giving fair press to anything else. Picking sides to the energy debate just for the sake of belonging to a group or feeding our own pride is self defeating in the long run, and can quench innovation and discovery. Most of us are on the same side here, we just don't always know it because of the political climate.

There are folks who think that the market should be the only force affecting the development of clean energy... and on the flip side of the coin, there are folks who think that we should develop clean energy technologies without any regard to market forces whatosever. It seems clear that you have to balance these issues, just like everything else in life needs balanced.

While biomass gasification may not solve our energy problems of and by itself, I do think that it can be a significant force in diversifying our choices. Diversity is generally a key trait required for success in any market.

Just my $.02

cheers

 

[Hansson]

I think it's important for us to keep our minds open to all the possibilities for energy. Too often we tend to align ourselves with one camp or the other without giving fair press to anything else. Picking sides to the energy debate just for the sake of belonging to a group or feeding our own pride is self defeating in the long run, and can quench innovation and discovery. Most of us are on the same side here, we just don't always know it because of the political climate.

There are folks who think that the market should be the only force affecting the development of clean energy... and on the flip side of the coin, there are folks who think that we should develop clean energy technologies without any regard to market forces whatosever. It seems clear that you have to balance these issues, just like everything else in life needs balanced.

While biomass gasification may not solve our energy problems of and by itself, I do think that it can be a significant force in diversifying our choices. Diversity is generally a key trait required for success in any market.

Just my $.02

cheers

I agree whit you. Diversity is important.

A thing that I belive in is grind connected solar cells. A Tax Credits for solar cells is on the agenda here. If the European Union says yes the consumer can get 60% of the cost payed.The max you can get is 246 466 US-dollar. 2 000 000 SEK

This will make the payoff for solar cells acceptable, Perhaps 10 years

 

[atlarge54]

Required reading for any energy discussion (broken link removed to http://www.fcpp.org/main/publication_detail_print.php?PublD=2737) If this link doesn't work do a search on Energy Myths and Realities by Keith Rattie. As with all articles be aware of bias, he's from the Nat Gas business. He's been quoted in the past regarding the ethanol boondoggle being "The price we pay for letting Iowa vote first in the primaries."