Gas Generator Recommendations

[lml999]

I bought a Honda 3000i generator a year ago, didn't have any occasion to use it. We just moved to Cape Cod, where the power goes out periodically....and we have well water. I'm hoping the little Honda can drive the well pump, otherwise I'll either pick up a second one and run them ganged together, or possibly sell the 3000i and pick up the 7000i.

I'm also planning on converting the unit to NG. We've got natural gas in the house, and while I'm having the line run out to the shed for the generator, I'll also have a gas line run (both buried properly).

The Honda generators are wonderful...quiet, well built.

 

[Sprinter]

Or here is another idea. If your well pump is a typical deep well submersible of, say, 3/4 hp, the 3000 watt will not have the power to satisfy the heavy surge when the pump starts. However 7kw should be adequate, but may be overkill for the household unless you plan to run the whole house with it. And the 7000i units are expensive. Note that the rated continuous power is only 5500 watts with 7000 surge, which may or may not be enough for your pump. You would want to research the surge needs of your pump before buying anything. Also, it will be de-rated for NG use. All things to be certain of before buying anything.

If you don't need the whole-house capability, but do need to run the pump, a cheaper option may be to keep the 3000i for household uses, and get a 7000 - 8000 watt non-inverter (like a Champion or Westinghouse, etc) for about $700 or so just for the pump. Those gensets with Automatic Voltage Regulator are pretty good, but your inverter set is much better for sensitive home items. The pump should be fine with the non-inverter (but with AVR) power and only needs to be run maybe 30 minutes a day or so. Your pressure tank can fill in a few minutes, so a gas generator could last for many fill cycles without much gas. I'm thinking of doing that here because our 2000i is perfect for our house and takes so little gas. We have propane for cooking. I have enough water stored for a few weeks, but I'd love to be able to run the pump.

I will get one on propane, though so I don't have to worry about stale gas all the time.

But if the cost of the 7000i is not a concern, it could be a great unit for whole-house on a switch if it's enough for the pump start.

 

[begreen]

Check the well pump's amperage and voltage. If it's a 240v pump you will need a new generator. A buddy of mine uses the EM5000S for his deep well pump and it handles it nicely.

 

[iamlucky13]

I think there are replacement control panels available for well pumps that include soft-starters (beyond the start-capacitor the pump probably already has) to reduce start-up load. That could let you get away with a smaller generator than you might need unmodified. I've never gone shopping for them, however. I just know they exist for industrial motors. I assume this would be a product in high demand for off-grid solar folks who don't want to buy oversize their inverters.

 

[Sprinter]

The motor specification to look for is "Locked Rotor Amps". To be on the safe side, the generator should provide that much current for the duration of the surge current. Generators can vary and motors can vary. I don't like being too close to edge on stuff like this. If your rotor can't get going, it can fail if the breaker doesnt trip in time. Get familiar with the requirements, then overspec by at least 10%. The difference in costs for AVR generators isn't all that much.

 

[Sprinter]

off-grid solar folks who don't want to buy oversize their inverters.

Yeah, the off-grid folks have studied this stuff to death and do tend to not over-spend.

 

[begreen]

Looks like the bigger Honda generators take motor startup loads into account. For example the 5KW Honda 7000is can handle a surge load of 7KW for 10 seconds.

 

[Sprinter]

Please note that locked rotor current is the worst scenario. Not always will it take that much current to get the rotor turning in a reasonable time, but it can happen. I think the reason that there are so many opinions and experiences out there is that there are so many variables involved with pumps and generators. I don't think we know IMI999's situation in that regard.

I imagine that Honda's 5500/7000i would probably work fine on a typical 3/4 hp submersible even though the locked rotor current may be upwards of 40 amps, or about 9 kw. But I'd hate to be the one that suggested it and then it doesn't work for some reason.

What I would still be concerned with, though, is the occasion when the pump starts up and loads down the household use. If it's marginally spec'd, it could cause problems there. That's another reason I favor a separate, but cheaper generator dedicated to the pump if that works for the user. For my place, I think it's ideal, but may not be for everyone.

Also, I believe that a generator running of NG has to be derated for maximum power by about 20% from gasoline operation. That's pretty substantial.

 

[maple1]

Another option re. water in an outage, is to just increase your water storage capacity. Adding another cushion tank, or tanks, gives you more water in an outage & also helps your pump & power bill at all other times by reducing starts & stops. I also keep a 25 gallon plastic barrel under our Venmar condensate line. The little bit it catches during the year gets used for toilet flushing in an outage, and the water in the cushion tank & system lasts quite a while for drinking water.

That all depends on how long outages are & how much water you 'need' during that time, but we rarely need to run the water pump when the power goes out even with just one ordinary 20 gallon cushion tank.

 

[lml999]

Great input everyone! We are new to well and septic system ownership, so this is a learning process for me.

Our water pressure is not great, so we may be changing the pump. The setup is 22 years old. I have a good well guy coming to take a look at it; he did excellent work for our neighbor, who now has great water pressure. When he comes, I'll ask about startup and steady state current draw, and what options we have.

I'm inclined to sell the 3000i and buy a 7000. An alternative is to get a second 3000i and run them together. Cost would be about the same either way... With the latter approach I'd have redundancy if one fails, and I could also run just one if we're not running the well pump. I don't know how long the pressure tank provides water without power...if it's two flushes, that doesn't work...if it's 5 10 minute showers, that would be okay...I don't mind managing resources...

Again, I'll be running the generator(s) on natural gas piped to the house, so I don't have a specific concern about fuel sourcing.

I understand that our neighborhood seldom loses power, so putting in a standby generator seems like overkill... The auto switching transfer box at generator-line.com might be enough to make the whole thing easy for my wife to do if I'm away. Go to the shed, hit start on the genny, watch lights go back on... Our old setup required that we also flip switches on the transfer box. One button start is good for her...multiple buttons/switches in different locations...not so much.

 

[Sprinter]

Sounds like you're doing your homework. Just be aware that running a 5500/7000 gen on natural gas will only yield you about 4400 watts continuous and only 5600 watts surge. To me, that's a little too marginal for my taste regarding the pump. Household, okay.

Maybe I'm a little conservative, but I'd hate to see you disappointed as far as the water pump is concerned.

 

[begreen]

An alternative is to get a second 3000i and run them together.

Running two 3000i's together will double the output wattage but it will not provide 240vac.

 

[Sprinter]

Running two 3000i's together will double the output wattage but it will not provide 240vac.

Yup. Same with my 2000i. But we still don't know what kind of well and pump you have. Is it a deep submersible with a 1/2 or 3/4 hp pump, or is it a shallow well with a centrifugal pump, or what? 120 vac, or 240vac? We just need to know more to help.

But I'm sure your contractor will steer you right.

I'm sticking with my recommendation for a household gen in addition to a well pump gen that will be cheaper and less sensitive to power quality and should be separated from the household IMO in any case.

 

[Sprinter]

That all depends on how long outages are & how much water you 'need' during that time, but we rarely need to run the water pump when the power goes out even with just one ordinary 20 gallon cushion tank.

Exactly. We've been fine with the occasional one day or two without the pump. But if you are concerned about the kind of problems like Sandy or a major grid meltdown, you need more. If you are a hard-core prepper, then much more.

 

[Highbeam]

I'm sticking with my recommendation for a household gen in addition to a well pump gen that will be cheaper and less sensitive to power quality and should be separated from the household IMO in any case.

I agree with a little additional stuff. I am a big fan of the whole panel backfeeding option made possible/legal/safe by the use of the low cost interlock system. Feed the backfeed breaker with wire large enough to use a fat breaker like a 50 or 60 amp. Since your main panel already feeds the well pump you just use a big genset when you plan to fire the well pump or the water heater. You won't regret oversizing the inlet circuit.

Then acquire two generators. One big, burly, 240 volt guy for the heavy lifting which can be your well pump or the electric water heater in the house. The second generator is a smallish inverter genset of no more than 3000 watts that will be run most of the time. You need to create a special adapter to feed your house with the 120 volt output of the inverter genset but it works great for long term running since it is quiet, low fuel consumption, clean power, easy to manage.

I have many many hours on our little champion 3100 watt genset. It's a gem. The yam and Honda 2000+ inverter sets are also excellent.

 

[TonyVideo]

Love my Honda eu2000i generator. It just sips gas vs an old Champion I had. Gas savings alone would pay the expense for an inverter generator not to mention being sine wave.

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[Sprinter]

Love my Honda eu2000i generator. It just sips gas vs an old Champion I had. Gas savings alone would pay the expense for an inverter generator not to mention being sine wave.

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It's really surprising how much you can power with 1800 watts. I can power good lighting, two fridges, two TVs with satellite gear, two pond pumps, DSL modem, desktop computer, fans, stereo, and probably more. With the wood stove and a propane range, we could last for months easy. The Honda 2000i has an "eco" mode that runs at a slow speed if the load is less than a few hundred watts. I've had this thing last all night plus, on less than a gallon. Probably longer if it's in eco mode most of the time.

I know that most people don't have a gas range, but in that case, you can do a lot of cooking and water heating with a Coleman style stove and a 5 gallon tank. A gas grill is nice too. I've seen some pretty nice stove/oven camping units at Costco, too.

Our submersible pump is the only thing that's a problem. If you are serious about long term outages and have a well pump, it's perfectly reasonable to get a larger genset just for that, as Highbeam suggested. Gas consumption is not much of an issue for that purpose, nor is sine wave purity. A pump only has to run several minutes to fill the pressure tank.

The Yamaha model is probably just as good from what I've heard, BTW.

 

[maverick06]

Everyone has different needs for generators. mine are needed for power outages. fireplace blower, sump pump, chest freezer, refrigerator, a few lights are my loads. I expect at least a 24 hour blackout once every summer and once in the winter. worst I have had was about 5-6 days in a row, but that was anomalous.

I have a generac 2000xi (I paid about $600). inverter genny. I am not happy with it and wouldn't recommend it. BUT it was the best non-Honda available when I was buying it. When it runs it runs well, but when its cold outside, 20F, it has a hard hard time starting. Not fun. This has only been a problem twice, but that's a problem!

I also have a champion Model # 46539 3500/4000w (I paid $419). I bought this after the inverter. My wife has a very hard time carrying the inverter and usually cant pull it over. The champion has wheels and a pushbutton start. Its great! Really pleased with it. It isn't very loud either, its a generator, but its not what I was expecting. I haven't used it enough to under stand its fuel consumption well, although the internew reviews seem to indicate its pretty civilized. I am very pleased with this so far!

Plus side is having two generators is really positive, a backup to the backup. If I was buying a new generator today without anything, I would get whatever the champion inverter is with wheels/pushbutton start (about $1000). but since I already own an inverter generator I am not going with that since money doesn't grow on any of the trees in my yard....

 

[moey]

Why don't we use generators that run on diesel? I get this question for many days...

They do they are much larger generators though think about a mine or someplace that does not have access to the grid. Diesel engines are more expensive they just are. I suspect the consumer would not pay the cost difference.

 

[begreen]

A friend's house has a diesel generator. He has a diesel tractor too so fuel storage is already there. They are common in boats too.

 

[Light in the Dark]

I run (and actually refurbish on the side) military diesel generators. Diesel is the best way to go, in my opinion. You get a nice set, and they will last forever. My 5kw military unit is actually rated for 6250 at 100%, and up to 7.5KW on demand. Half gallon an hour burn too. You can also set them up to replenish their fuel supply from a remote tank (home heating oil tank, 55 gal drum, etc). I in fact have 4 on craiglist right now, here in new england.

Not trying to sell a thing here... but if anyone wants to know anything about military power, I'd love to help. Many folks are turning onto these units, especially as storms are getting more frequent, and more intense. These are rated for prime power (which means they are DESIGNED to run 24/7... not like consumer grade items).

Any of these look like fun?

 

[begreen]

The main reason I went for propane vs diesel was ease of storage and fuel transport and the compactness of a quiet generator.
On boats the concern was about molds forming in the tanks due to condensation. How well does diesel store over say years in a partially filled tank or barrel?

 

[saewoody]

The main reason I went for propane vs diesel was ease of storage and fuel transport and the compactness of a quiet generator.
On boats the concern was about molds forming in the tanks due to condensation. How well does diesel store over say years in a partially filled tank or barrel?

I have a buddy with a propane generator. When I asked him why, he said when the power goes out a lot gas stations lose power too and don't have generator back ups. Which is true around here. But you can always get propane. Made sense to me.


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[lagger]

I have a buddy with a propane generator. When I asked him why, he said when the power goes out a lot gas stations lose power too and don't have generator back ups. Which is true around here. But you can always get propane. Made sense to me.


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A factor in my choice of a Champion dual fuel 7\9k portable ... additionally many gennys like the generac portables have a thd exceeding .9% and the champion is < .5%... a bbq size tank with a full fill (TSC is a godsend in this regard .. my local refills to a full 20lb \ 4.6 gal for 1.89 a gallon .. < 9 .00 bux) and is enough via an inlet to the murray box to run the whole house for 6+ hours per tank... I have never used gas in this set, so carb issues \ gumming stale fuel etc are eliminated

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I have a buddy with a propane generator. When I asked him why, he said when the power goes out a lot gas stations lose power too and don't have generator back ups. Which is true around here. But you can always get propane. Made sense to me.

A huge benefit of propane in an engine used sporadically is the motor oil doesn't go bad just due to time sitting. Propane burns much cleaner than gas or diesel so you can leave the oil in there for years (if it's not run much). Oil changes can be done by the hour meter (and doubled over gasoline even it's run hard).