Garn, Froling, or..... Need advice and guidance

[BHetrick10]

I know its my decision I am just hoping for some guidance as there as some, (a lot) of things I need to be schooled on.

I have been doing a lot of reading (30-40 hrs) the last few weeks. I think I have decided to put an indoor boiler outside in a building. I like the Froling and the Garn. I also have some concerns on both of them.

Here is my situation. I just built a new shop 40 x 64 x 16. Part of that space has a 2nd story 18 x 20. There is also a room in the attic 20 x 24. The main part of the shop is radiant in floor heat. I plan on maintaining the shop at 50 - 55 and on weekends when I am out in it working turn on an air handler (not sure if correct terminology) in the corner to raise the air temp. The other rooms I plan on keeping it cheap and simple with either cast iron old school radiators or hot water base board.

In the near future I plan on building a house somewhere around 2,500 - 3,500 SF. I would have a total of 5,000 - 6,000 of radiant in floor heat and about 1,000 of baseboard or radiators. I will be heat the DHW with the unit as well.

The boiler room and the main floor of the shop are the same level, the main level of the house will be the same level of the boiler room. What I dont know or understand is if the heating system itself needs to be pressurized, why or why not?

The Garn rep recommended the 2000. He said it is about 80% efficient. I would cost 14,168 plus freight (700 - 1,000) this includes the unit, flue and chemicals.

The floling rep recommended the 40/50 according to there web site is up to 92% efficient. This unit would cost 10,700m, plus storage (recommended 800 gal), and flue. Also how do I size the expansion tank and does it need a bladder in it or.... ?

OK something else I dont get the Garn has 2000 gal of storage and is rated and 318,750 BTU/hr. Froling is rated and 170,700 and the rep said only 800 gal of storage? Also the Garn rep said will radiant heat to figure 15 BTU Per square foot and the Frolling Rep said 25? If this is the case the Froling seems a little undersized. I living in central PA and told both of them this. I am at work 10 hrs a day and dont want to deplete the hot water do to heating the DHW.

What I dont like about the Froling how expensive it may get to replace parts when they go bad. But it is these parts that make the froling what it is. I may have to get a genius in to trouble shoot the Froling? The Garn is slightly less efficient but has a proven track record cant deny the simplicity of it. If something ever does go bad it would be a straight forward fix. I dont like how much power the blower motor draws either.

Ok down to opinions and comparisons... No matter what my boiler building will be the same size 20 x 20. The Garn from what I can tell is easier to hook up. With the Froling I plan on getting propane tanks and modifying them for storage.

 

[pybyr]

If I were working from a clean slate and using radiant in-floor heat, I'd be really attracted by the near-foolproof simplicity of the Garn.

Storage plus pumps plus controls that all get involved in interfacing a stand-alone boiler with storage could quickly eat up or exceed the price difference.

About the only unavoidable downside that I see to the Garn would be if you anticipated being away for an extended period in cold weather and wanted it to provide heat right away upon your return. You've got to raise the temperature of the full mass of water (at least part way) before you can start sending meaningful heat to your load. With a stand-alone boiler & storage and proper controls, you can send the heat straight from the boiler to the load even if your storage has cooled down.

 

[Como]

Lots of things to consider.

The first thing you need is to get a handle on your loads. With new build you can put in a lot of insulation before the payback makes no sense.

I would keep the heaters emitter to one type unless you have a very good reason. In floor, radiators and baseboard usually require different temps.

Very different technologies, your load sounds more Garn ish than the smaller Froling. What does your wood cost?

 

[BHetrick10]

The wood cost is my time. I should be able to get enough from the land around me. If not I can buy a load of logs (Told equivalent to 8 - 10 cord) for 1,000.

The fast turn around time on the froling would be nice. I just cant seem to figure how it would get the job done though. I also dont understand why the Garn 1500 isnt big enough. The rep said I would be much happier with the 2,000.

Does the radiant in floor need to be pressurized?

 

[Como]

We can cross off ultimate efficiency by the sound of it.

I think you need to work out you heat loss numbers before you go further.

 

[pybyr]

Here's another factor to consider: size and shape of each unit will accept. Not one to base a decision on by itself, but something you may want to be aware of, especially if you are going to be harvesting or processing your own wood.

Downdraft gasifiers are somewhat choosy about wood size/ shape. The big pieces (6-10" logs split only in half) that used to be the cat's meow for maintaining a steady burn in my old primitive wood/ hot air furnace would give my downdraft gasifier extreme indigestion (they jam and fail to move down into the coal bed/ nozzle area). To keep my downdraft unit running at its best (and I tend to expect that a Froling would be similar) I really need to aim for a cross-section that, as someone put it, is about as big as a playing card. That means more splitting/ handling. I'm OK with that as I now get dramatically more heat from dramatically less wood.

I haven't run a Garn, but I do have the impression that once a fire is established, it's not very finicky about wood size/ shape. That may translate to less time and effort at splitting/ handling. But you'd want to run that by Garn and/ or some experienced Garn owners.

Just some more things to consider.

 

[BHetrick10]

You are correct about the wood in a Garn. I dint mention that but is I suppose a selling point. The rep said up to 30" long and 6-8" diameter seems to work the best. That would save me some time. I guess I didnt take that into consideration.

I also didn't check into EKO maybe I should. I didnt know that they have an 80 model. It may do the trick as well. I dont know about the price though. They seem like a popular make. What are thoughts on this?

I think the Froling is a unique piece of equipment that scares me at the same time with it technology. I have a local dealer for them and that was part of the reason for looking that way.

Efficiency is somewhat important. I am not home much as it is. It will be interesting in finding time to harvest wood. I own two businesses and have a rental property. I also travel around a lot in the summer racing. I like the idea of wood though. It is cheap if you can get your own but time consuming. I like the idea of not being attached to the prices of oil, gas, electric.


But like stated less splitting = less time maybe more wood but.... May just a wash on that one?

As far as heat loss goes I am not a heating guy and dont have a program to do so. Would I hire someone to figure it out? With house not ever started not sure how to do the calc on that one?

 

[bpirger]

I have a Garn 1500, just installed it, and so far I am pleased. I have about the same setup as you, but all radiant. There are a couple of threads that are active (Garn Stratification and Garn Half filled...No leaks) as well as a ton of other with folks discussing their Garns. Never heard of an unhappy Garn customer, save for writing the check. It is a serious investment, but in my search, I decided the strong history and simplicity won my purchase. It may not be perfect....but when you read some of the other threads, it sure sounds like it is much closer than others. But, that said, there is always a learning curve.

Search for the Garn threads....and read them all closely.

You idea to heat up the shop on weekends with an air HX is a good one....heating a big slab by 20 degrees will take a long time....I will let you know how long when I heat my 32x72x12 shop/garage up! Not hooked into the system yet. When you do everything yourself, seems like it takes a long time!

Burning the Garn couldn't be easier....once the fire is going, you walk away. Maybe you put more wood in in about hour to 90 minutes, maybe not...depends on your temps and what you need.

New Garn controller is not yet shipping, and they are leaving us in the wind a bit currently....not supplying a controller in the interim. Hard to find a relibale, inexpensive count down timer....but this should be a non issue within a month or so when the new controller ships...I HOPE!

Would I prefer the 2000? Yeah, I probably wood....it would extend the time between burns a little. RIght now it is 15 outside and I just upped the controller to 74 in the house. It is 72 now. I suspect by morning the Garn water will be down to 120 or so...still enough to keep dumping heat in my radiant slab...which is 78 now and pushing 120 water through it (the max setting). So in the morning I will fire.

Heating DHW can be a bit of a pain if when you let the Garn drop down in temp...which you can for radiant. Read the Stratification thread..,.it is well discussed., Just burn more often is one solution.

I'd buy the Garn again....if I had the extra cash I'd upgrade to the 2000 probably...but really it is just how long you can go between burns.

There's a learning curve on how to best load the wood to maximize the time to clean burn....I had smoke today for at least 30 minutes after a very full reload....then it got dark and I couldn't see out the window. If I had loaded it different, I think within 10 minutes smoke would have been gone. Things like that you play with and learn....

I'm happy. I'd say estatic if Dectra would ship the new controller.

Search the forum...you will learn many things. I also suggest radiant any place you can. Low water temps....and as I stand barefoot in shorts in my house now, on my 78 degree and rising slab, it is incredible....and so very stable in temp wverywhere throughout.

The comment on wood size was very important to me. Some of the smaller gassers only took 18" pieces....yuck. My wood is cut to about 22-23, for my woodstove, and the Garn ideally really wants them longer. My splitter is limited to 24"....maybe a future upgrade. Not anytime soon though. I do load the wood towards the back of the Garn and get better performance I believe....

Good luck! I heard Dectra is having a sale on Vertical chimney Garn's in stock....heaterman had a thread I believe that mentions this. Might be able to save a little....you will have to ask TWH.

 

[djbutt]

I have a Froling with Storage in my semi finished basement and love it.

I have never even seen a garn and only know what I have read on these forums.

To me the number one benefit with the froling is how living space friendly it is. It runs so clean with no smoke or smells, I think if you wanted to you could install it in a living room.

That being said I think if I was installing in an outbuilding or shop environment I would seriously consider the garn.

I also think 800 gallons is not enough storage for the froling unless your delta T is huge, like 100 degrees. To be more realistic it needs 1000 gallons minimum, 1500 or 2000 is even better.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

I know its my decision I am just hoping for some guidance as there as some, (a lot) of things I need to be schooled on.

I have been doing a lot of reading (30-40 hrs) the last few weeks. I think I have decided to put an indoor boiler outside in a building. I like the Froling and the Garn. I also have some concerns on both of them.

Here is my situation. I just built a new shop 40 x 64 x 16. Part of that space has a 2nd story 18 x 20. There is also a room in the attic 20 x 24. The main part of the shop is radiant in floor heat. I plan on maintaining the shop at 50 - 55 and on weekends when I am out in it working turn on an air handler (not sure if correct terminology) in the corner to raise the air temp. The other rooms I plan on keeping it cheap and simple with either cast iron old school radiators or hot water base board.

In the near future I plan on building a house somewhere around 2,500 - 3,500 SF. I would have a total of 5,000 - 6,000 of radiant in floor heat and about 1,000 of baseboard or radiators. I will be heat the DHW with the unit as well.

The boiler room and the main floor of the shop are the same level, the main level of the house will be the same level of the boiler room. What I dont know or understand is if the heating system itself needs to be pressurized, why or why not?

The Garn rep recommended the 2000. He said it is about 80% efficient. I would cost 14,168 plus freight (700 - 1,000) this includes the unit, flue and chemicals.

The floling rep recommended the 40/50 according to there web site is up to 92% efficient. This unit would cost 10,700m, plus storage (recommended 800 gal), and flue. Also how do I size the expansion tank and does it need a bladder in it or.... ?

OK something else I dont get the Garn has 2000 gal of storage and is rated and 318,750 BTU/hr. Froling is rated and 170,700 and the rep said only 800 gal of storage? Also the Garn rep said will radiant heat to figure 15 BTU Per square foot and the Frolling Rep said 25? If this is the case the Froling seems a little undersized. I living in central PA and told both of them this. I am at work 10 hrs a day and dont want to deplete the hot water do to heating the DHW.

What I dont like about the Froling how expensive it may get to replace parts when they go bad. But it is these parts that make the froling what it is. I may have to get a genius in to trouble shoot the Froling? The Garn is slightly less efficient but has a proven track record cant deny the simplicity of it. If something ever does go bad it would be a straight forward fix. I dont like how much power the blower motor draws either.

Ok down to opinions and comparisons... No matter what my boiler building will be the same size 20 x 20. The Garn from what I can tell is easier to hook up. With the Froling I plan on getting propane tanks and modifying them for storage.

If you need the heat output of the Garn the Froling won't match this. As a number have said you need to know BTU requirements. I had misgivings about Froling parts prices over a year ago, specifically the computor. Never heard of one going bad though, they seem to be as reliable as as an anvil. As for the refractory I don't read complaints on this either. The burn tunnel has the tangential entrance & doesn't seem to beat this up, the flue gasses just spin through this. If you are within the the Frolings BTU range I would vote for this, it is also pressurized. If not Garn. I don't want to step on too many toes here, I don't think the EKO is in the sale league as these two, Randy

 

[mr.fixit]

I had -20* this morning and my house was at 70*,my shop was at 67*,my other shop was at 50*(storage room)and the garage where the boiler is located was 50*with just heat off of the boiler and plumbing.Over 4000 sq. ft. total but well insulated.Top of storage was at 165* and the boiler said "fuel" but had coals left. I think this EKO is one great little boiler and I also think the other brands mentioned on here are also. But I also think the EKO is in its own class ,--Best value for your dollar.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

I had -20* this morning and my house was at 70*,my shop was at 67*,my other shop was at 50*(storage room)and the garage where the boiler is located was 50*with just heat off of the boiler and plumbing.Over 4000 sq. ft. total but well insulated.Top of storage was at 165* and the boiler said "fuel" but had coals left. I think this EKO is one great little boiler and I also think the other brands mentioned on here are also. But I also think the EKO is in its own class ,--Best value for your dollar.

No offense, my Atmos doesn't even have the firetubes your EKO has. Glad it's working well for you, Randy

 

[Como]

Bear in mind that there are lots of Froling's and similar boilers out there, just not so many in the US. They have a large user base.

It is going to take time and money for Froling etc to role out their dealer network, as it did BMW etc. It's a big country.

 

[BHetrick10]

If I knew that the froling would work I think I would go that route. Seems real user friendly and efficient. I am scared of a 10,000 + dollar mistake though. I like how this style of boiler can pick up and go if the house is cold and bypass the storage.

This is what I dont like about the garn. You cant bypass the storage. At the same time that is what makes it a Garn. Real simple just a little less efficient, but it is not as picky as what you feed it.

I was told a Solo 60 may work rated at 198,xxx BTU/hr. They seem to have a good track record?

How are you guys doing the heating calcs?

Thanks for the replies

 

[mr.fixit]

I had -20* this morning and my house was at 70*,my shop was at 67*,my other shop was at 50*(storage room)and the garage where the boiler is located was 50*with just heat off of the boiler and plumbing.Over 4000 sq. ft. total but well insulated.Top of storage was at 165* and the boiler said "fuel" but had coals left. I think this EKO is one great little boiler and I also think the other brands mentioned on here are also. But I also think the EKO is in its own class ,--Best value for your dollar.

No offense, my Atmos doesn't even have the firetubes your EKO has. Glad it's working well for you, Ra ndy

I just had to get my .02cents in for once.Not offended one bit.All boilers have good and bad points-- kinda like the Ford,Chevy,Dodge debate.Everyone has their own thing.The one thing about the eko and other "simple" boilers is just that-- they are simple with little electronics to fail.I have no backup other than a 33 year old oil furnance in the house.$300 to $350 and I can have an extra controller and fan on hand just in case.That being said I should get those ordered!

 

[Como]

At the moment you are just looking for a guide, get you in the ball park.

If you know your past fuel bills, the Garn site has a not bad couple of spreadsheets. I put my numbers in and they were 10% adrift of a full blown room by room calc that a pro had done to size radiators.

http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/BTUCalculator.aspx Simple but gives you an idea.

 

[BHetrick10]

Thanks for the link. I think I am going to try to get a contractor in to calc to building and estimate for the house. I live in the boonies where people dont even know what gassification is or how storage is supposed to work. (I didn't know much until I started reading here. Since I have done a lot of reading and learned a lot.) I did the 25 BTU per SF and filled in the chart. The chart said my building doesn't require 25 BTU/SF, it says about 22. I know not much difference but it adds up. Either way it looks like the Froling is out of the picture.

I did look at a Froling in operation tonight. Looks like a nice piece. It had my name all over it to bad it doesnt have a big brother :long: .

He had a package deal on a solo 60 usually sells for 10,579. He has it discounted to 8,500 no shipping charge. I got looking and this unit is only 75-80 percent efficient, with a 6 cubic foot fire box.

I have a hard time believing that the Garn is 809 % if the solo is only 75-80 when you can adjust the air setting on it. From what I gather you just turn the Garn on and chuck in some lumber.

The more I look the more the Garn Stands out. The solo may be big enough to get the job done though and would be able to "heat up" faster if the boiler was cool, cold. I think I can come up with a storage system for about 4,000. This makes the solo a lot smaller and less expensive option.

I feel like this is one of the hardest decisions I've had to make. I dont want to buy an expensive piece of equipment and it not last or function like I think it should.

 

[BHetrick10]

Thanks for the link. I think I am going to try to get a contractor in to calc to building and estimate for the house. I live in the boonies where people dont even know what gassification is or how storage is supposed to work. (I didn't know much until I started reading here. Since I have done a lot of reading and learned a lot.) I did the 25 BTU per SF and filled in the chart. The chart said my building doesn't require 25 BTU/SF, it says about 22. I know not much difference but it adds up. Either way it looks like the Froling is out of the picture.

I did look at a Froling in operation tonight. Looks like a nice piece. It had my name all over it to bad it doesnt have a big brother :long: .

He had a package deal on a solo 60 usually sells for 10,579. He has it discounted to 8,500 no shipping charge. I got looking and this unit is only 75-80 percent efficient, with a 6 cubic foot fire box.

I have a hard time believing that the Garn is 809 % if the solo is only 75-80 when you can adjust the air setting on it. From what I gather you just turn the Garn on and chuck in some lumber.

The more I look the more the Garn Stands out. The solo may be big enough to get the job done though and would be able to "heat up" faster if the boiler was cool, cold. I think I can come up with a storage system for about 4,000. This makes the solo a lot smaller and less expensive option.

I feel like this is one of the hardest decisions I've had to make. I dont want to buy an expensive piece of equipment and it not last or function like I think it should.

 

[kabbott]

I had -20* this morning and my house was at 70*,my shop was at 67*,my other shop was at 50*(storage room)and the garage where the boiler is located was 50*with just heat off of the boiler and plumbing.Over 4000 sq. ft. total but well insulated.Top of storage was at 165* and the boiler said "fuel" but had coals left. I think this EKO is one great little boiler and I also think the other brands mentioned on here are also. But I also think the EKO is in its own class ,--Best value for your dollar.

No offense, my Atmos doesn't even have the firetubes your EKO has. Glad it's working well for you, Ra ndy

I just had to get my .02cents in for once.Not offended one bit.All boilers have good and bad points-- kinda like the Ford,Chevy,Dodge debate.Everyone has their own thing.The one thing about the eko and other "simple" boilers is just that-- they are simple with little electronics to fail.I have no backup other than a 33 year old oil furnance in the house.$300 to $350 and I can have an extra controller and fan on hand just in case.That being said I should get those ordered!

My .02 cents... The Eko is a good boiler judging from the number out there... BUT I would not even consider it for one reason... Biomass has induced draft in
similar design. Almost bought one until I saw the Varmeboronen. If you want simple it's hard to beat, NO electronic controller at all, Just old school temp sensors
and a couple relays. Also way easier to clean than any other boiler I looked at. I think most will be very happy with any of the above mentioned boilers.
I also would not pin my decision on efficiency numbers... they are all over the place. If your gassing with no smoke and 350-450 degree stack temps your
getting the bulk of the heat out of the fuel... anything more is just bragging rights... %-P

 

[Como]

I guess the comparison is with vehicle engines, to get higher efficiency you need a lot more complications. And a car engine is going to be a lot more complicated than any wood boiler.

However there is not a common fuel price so the cost/benefit becomes more arguable.

I have no doubt that the Froling's etc are more efficient than others, and there is something about having he fanciest one on the block.

Just a thought, when I was talking to contractors who were not familiar with wood, I found they were with solar. So describing it as akin to a solar source, except you control when the sun shines, worked wonders.

 

[bpirger]

Before I decided Garn, I was going with a BioMass 60 myself. Firebox could take a good size log and it appeared well built and relatively simple. The one drawback to the Garn....we don't get to see that gassifying torch! Someday I'll have to stop by and actually see this myself. I think the BioMass had a little window into that chamber so you could see the torch activity. Now that would be cool for show and tell!

As for heating up the Garn.....Within an hour or so, I'll get a 25-30 degree temperature rise. If your water is at 50F this still means a couple of hours. But if you are at 100, and have radiant, you'll be heating farily quickly. Radiant though (my slabs anyways) take hours and hours to move....up or down...so your concern there is certainly valid.

My wife fired the Garn this morning (again!), and we went from 120 to 155 in about 90 minutes....just in time for me to crawl out of bed to take a hot shower!

She's gotten into turning up the tstat to 74 or so, which brings the floor up to about 83. Now an 83 degree floor feels great on the feet, especially when coming back in from plowing the long driveway on the 4-wheeler. Melts all the snow, water is gone in just a few minutes, and boots/gloves are nice and warm already for the next trip outside. Have to love radiant....

 

[Nofossil]

I haven't owned either the Garn or the Froling, but I've spent a fair amount of time crawling around inside both of them. They are pretty different beasts. Which one's better depends on your preferences. My observations:

The Garn is like my John Deere dozer - solid, simple, almost brutally functional. Not much to go wrong.

The Froling is like my RX-7 twin turbo - sleek, elegant, sophisticated, and very high performance.

I like them both.

The Garn is not pressurized and comes with its storage built in. That might be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on the situation. The Froling goes to great lengths to make lighting easy and to make sure smoke doesn't escape. It uses lambda sensors to optimize the burn. You get to pick the amount of storage that you want and decide where to put it. These features might be really valuable to you, or not.

In my basement, I'd take the Froling in a heartbeat (anybody offering one?)

If I had a heavy equipment maintenance barn, I'd do the Garn in a similar heartbeat.

There certainly isn't any universal right or wrong answer. Like I said, I like them both.

 

[djbutt]

The Garn is like my John Deere dozer - solid, simple, almost brutally functional. Not much to go wrong.

The Froling is like my RX-7 twin turbo - sleek, elegant, sophisticated, and very high performance.

The Bulldozer to Sports car analogy is perfect.

One more plus for a froling in an out building is with the new Froling visualization 3200 software you can run and monitor the boiler and storage from a PC and if networked from any location.

 

[dogwood]

BHetrick, you might look through some old posts to get references to some heat loss online calculators. There are some better ones and some more simplistic ones. I ended up doing five or six different ones and found out where the results clustered. I did get some widely variable results. I trusted my own results rather than going by a professionals alone since my propane furnace was severely undersized by our heating contractors calcs. You would at least have something to compare with your professional's results. I'd forward you what I had downloaded if my old computer hadn't crashed and I lost everything on it. There was a heat loss calculator on a CD accompanying the Siegenthaler hydronics book you may be able to check out from your library or get on interlibrary loan. You definitely can find the references to others if you do a search of old posts. There's definitely more to it than multiplying out a set number of BTU's x's your square footage. You have to take into consideration your location, ceiling heights, number of windows, insulaltion, if you have a basement or not etc. If you start out with a miscalculation of your heating needs for your home at your location you might set yourself up for an expensive mistake. You also have to consider if you might expand your home in the future or any other future heat load additions. The math is straight-forward and it really doesn't take much time with online calculators. I'm sure some others could recommend the heat-loss calculators they used. Slantfin had a good one that was a little hard to locate after they took it offline, but I found it somewhere. Sorry I don't have the links anymore.

Mike

 

[Floydian]

I think the third edition of "Modern Hydronic Heating" is out now. the second edition came with free software that has the academic version of Siegenthaler's heat loss calculator. I like it more than any of the free online calculators I used. It matched up real well with the calcs I did by hand whereas most of the online calculators were giving me close to double the heat loss numbers. Might cost you $150 or so and you'd have THE book.

Noah