Garage heat! A few questions (maybe a Riley?)

[Don2222]

Also I just wanted to state that the only fact I have seen on the Quad recall is 8 known cases of "Glass Breakage" We really do not know if glass was blown all over the room. This is high temp Neo-Ceram glass in use now which may be a lot safer than the old Whitfield glass made in the early 90's.
I wish we had more facts here to take away the guess work of what really happened?

 

[stovelark]

Uh Don, I believe there were cases reported that the glass dispersed into the surrounding room, I thought one member posted pics on here?? Not sure. This was unheard of from a pellet stove to most people, including myself. While I sell and commend Quad for hopefully fixing this issue, its hard to fathom it ever being allowed to happen to begin with. At first, I attributed it to that in the drive to be super quiet (and the E2 is that), minimal combustion air flow was put into play. It didn't allot for buildup in the burn pot to keep it operating safely if the right conditions presented itself. Now I'm just thankful that no one has been hurt (physically), but I certainly would understand someone's reluctance to have faith in their E2, even with the change of the mother board. Surprisingly, all the customers we sold that stove to, the boards have been changed out and none were insisting to change to another stove (model or MFR). I think my own family would have insisted on changing it out. Glad I like Enviro. Take care.

 

[ccmac]

I have a nice Timberline woodstove in my approx. 32ftx64ft workshop. The workshop is a pole barn type structure and the woodstove seems to heat it well but I fire the stove up early to get some heat going. Usually get some coffee inside and come out an hour later to a warmer barn....not warm yet but tolerable and as things heat up so does my barn. PS: We have no local code here. Just be careful, it does not hurt to hear these guys sound the alarm every once in awhile to keep us grounded and safer.

 

[smwilliamson]

So you are saying that any stove (wood, pellet, etc) are not up to code for a garage in most places? Not that this really concerns me a ton, as I live out in the country, my garage is detached, and I can think of at least 10 people I know personally who have a wood stove in their garage.
I would prefer another regular corn stove for simplicity and long burn times without refueling, and I can find them from time-to-time used for less than $500. If they have good vent pipe that comes with them that is still a steal. But right now a little out of budget while i recoupe from the cost of the garage itself. Thankfully I have a few months before heat would be an issue.

I cant imagine why a pellet stove would be against code for a garage but not for a house? I am a lot less likely to burn to death or die of exhaust fumes in my garage than my home. So if its safe for 24/7 home use, why not garage use?

The rule is no solid fuel space heater shall be installed in a shop use environment unless the heater has been approved for shop use. Approval for shop use will have smaller viewing glass or double wall viewing glass as well as outside air and surfaces that do not exceed 160 degrees

 

[BrotherBart]

Code officials and insurance companies didn't just pull the denial of solid fuel burning appliances in garages, shops and bedrooms out of their butts. It is all based on the number of shops and garages that burn down/explode and the number of people found dead in bed historically.

You can pretty much do what you want to do. Those folks did too. Folks here just aren't gonna bless it. Not while I am on the block.

 

[smwilliamson]

It's all about safety people. I see stoves in garages all the time. I've seen many that inspectors actually inspected 10-15 years ago before it was common knowledge that is May be a bad idea. Most flammable vapor is heavier than air so it will sink and may not be noticed quickly or at all! That's why heaters have to be elevated. It's not about the gas burning it's about the gas vapors. Joe homeowner that is getting on in age and has taken a liking to avoiding his wife by hobbying in the garage and now wants heat to extend his efforts year round may not have the proper OSHA training or safeguards. Tooling around with lumber and such one might accidentally pop the glass or God forbid....set down that can of WD40 on top of the stove while he's clearing off his work bench.

The old adage from Yogi, "it's never a problem until it is"

 

[tiger]

I read "Garage" and "Riley" and got all excited; maybe a Sprite or Imp parked in there. No.

I had to Google the Riley stoves... odd looking but interesting. I think I'd come down on the side of not using a pellet stove in a garage used as a garage, but I'm overly cautious.

 

[rona]

An estimated 6,600 residential building garage fires were reported to United States fire departments each year and caused an estimated 30 deaths, 400 injuries and $457 million in property loss. 16% are electrically caused, 15% by carelessness or unintentional action and 11% of them are caused by open flame. Confined fire = 2.7%.
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v14i12.pdf

If a pellet stove is permitted it should be installed like a gas hot water heater, elevated above the floor. And of course, store flammables safely.

Define a open flame. Would it be similar to a gas hot water heater or like several gas furnaces that has a visible flame? I would define a pellet stove as a confined flame. One other thought If you added up the percent s mentioned they total 44.7 % that is less then half of the fires reported so what happened to the rest? It looks like most of the figures are estimates.

 

[Jaw818]

Oh wow, did not realize this was going cause WW3. My apologies.
First let me clarify that my lack of caring about code because I live in the country is that I'm less concerned about getting caught. My point about know other people with wood stoves was that I am guessing it is either not a code here or not one that is not enforced.
I know perfectly well that propane and used oil burners are perfectly fine in a garage, they both have an open flame, so I fail to seethe difference. Electric is legal too, and I have a feeling electric shorts cause more fires than pellet stoves.
My cars are stored in my garage, but my gas cans, mowers, wheelers, etc etc are all stored in my pole barn.
I appreciate the helpful info so far, and I'll need to read it more in depth. When I have a little more time. I had a few minutes and was not quite expecting this much.

Thank you.

 

[Jaw818]

I have a nice Timberline woodstove in my approx. 32ftx64ft workshop. The workshop is a pole barn type structure and the woodstove seems to heat it well but I fire the stove up early to get some heat going. Usually get some coffee inside and come out an hour later to a warmer barn....not warm yet but tolerable and as things heat up so does my barn. PS: We have no local code here. Just be careful, it does not hurt to hear these guys sound the alarm every once in awhile to keep us grounded and safer.

Thank you for the input. Since I'd like to keep the garage warm enough to melt the cars off, that is my concern with a wood stove. I have yet to see one that can keep warm for 12ish hours or more that would be needed to keep constant heat. I also am most cautious about wood due to creosote, specially with stoves that get started and shut off a lot with a fair amount of cooler temps.
I guess my preference order would be
1) pellet stove
2) propane
3) oil
4) wood
5) electric

My father has an outdoor wood boiler and heats everything with that, but the investment is pretty huge and requires a ton of work cutting and splitting.
My wife just got a new job and should be taking a lot of the financial burden off me, so I might be able to bite the bullet and buy another corn stove this fall. Otherwise I have an old catalytic propane wall heater in my basement... But talk about unsafe.

 

[Bioburner]

You have a good three months to get ready for winter. Someone had a Bixby for sale in Princeton for $400. Far better at burning corn than pellets, decent air filter and designed for use of fresh air intake venting.
Wood stove will have extra cost of good chimney.
About the only thing I think that is more unsafe in a shop environment is probably a torpedo heater. Ever see the output on one that has sat for awhile?
We lost a local shop due to them deciding to weld in the wood shop Dry saw dust could just as well been gasoline.

 

[Jaw818]

You have a good three months to get ready for winter. Someone had a Bixby for sale in Princeton for $400. Far better at burning corn than pellets, decent air filter and designed for use of fresh air intake venting.
Wood stove will have extra cost of good chimney.
We lost a local shop due to them deciding to weld in the wood shop Dry saw dust could just as well been gasoline.

I'd venture to say sawdust is worse. I believe it has a lower ignition temp, burns hotter and longer, and I've seen sawdust explode just like gasoline before too. But I am no carpenter, so I'm not to worried about accumulating enough saw dust set off a fireworks show.

I'll look for a bixby. Are there any other brands should look for or try to avoid. My only experience is with the auburn.

 

[Pete Zahria]

... I also am most cautious about wood due to creosote,.
I guess my preference order would be
1) pellet stove
2) propane
3) oil
4) wood
5) electric

6) coal.
Best bang for the buck by far... and no creosote.. Will burn up to 24hrs, stove stays same temp..
Heats this repair shop to 70° in the coldest New England weather..

 

[Jaw818]

6) coal.
Best bang for the buck by far... and no creosote.. Will burn up to 24hrs, stove stays same temp..
Heats this repair shop to 70° in the coldest New England weather..

I had never even considered coal... Where do you get it? How much does it cost (perspective too please, $x which heats an area for x amount of time)
Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Jaw818]

I was just looking on CL and there is a fair amount of old coal stoves. I love the look of some of these antique one, and the prices are very reasonable.

Is there a reason to stay away from the old stuff? Things I need to look out for? I have no experience at all with coal. So any info on it would be great.

Here is a link to a cool old one near me. $75?!? Almost scrap price.
Antique cast iron coal burning stove $75
(broken link removed to http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/atq/5111693233.html)

 

[begreen]

I would get something a bit more together than that stove. It looks like it is missing its cabinet. Looks more like it is ready to be garden art or scrap. Also, do you have the clearances for this? 36" in all directions.

Is the garage heater going to be full time running 24/7 most days or for an occasional project on weekends? If occasional I would not use coal. It takes a while to get a good fire going. If that is the case a pellet stove with a convection blower may be better for a quick warmup with easy clearances and flue install,

 

[Pete Zahria]

I had never even considered coal... Where do you get it? How much does it cost (perspective too please, $x which heats an area for x amount of time)
Thank you for the suggestion.

It certainly is not as easy to find as pellets, for sure.
As far as chains go, TSC has it.. some Agways.. some farm supply places.
There may be a smaller local dealer that sells it near you.
We do pellets and bagged coal, for instance.. Surprising how many coal people there are.
Everyone that has ever changed over from firewood to coal (like me)
has kicked themselves in the butt for not doing it sooner...
Don't get me wrong... pellets outsell the coal by a long shot... I like both.
Pellets are easier/cleaner, and less ash by a LOT... Just different applications...

As for the ~cost of the heat, coal is the cheapest. Hands down.
Per million BTU:
Coal... $17.14 (@$329/T)
Pellets $23.81 (@$275/T)
Oil...... $24.62 (@$2.39/gal)
Elec.....$59.60 (@$.19/kwh)

Dan

Edit:
I just read the comment about the 24/7 use.
He is right, hand fired coal takes a good hour or so to get going.. it is not as quick
nor easy to start as pushing a button... unless you get a stoker.
The stokers are automatic, and use rice coal (like pellets). Very similar to
a pellet stove, only can be a lot more heat...

The good side is, the coal is a good enough value, that you can
keep it going, and keep your shop "somewhat" warm, all the time...
Then when you want to work out there, just crank it up...
I can keep mine around 45° very inexpensively..

 

[Jaw818]

I would get something a bit more together than that stove. It looks like it is missing its cabinet. Looks more like it is ready to be garden art or scrap. Also, do you have the clearances for this? 36" in all directions.

Is the garage heater going to be full time running 24/7 most days or for an occasional project on weekends? If occasional I would not use coal. It takes a while to get a good fire going. If that is the case a pellet stove with a convection blower may be better for a quick warmup with easy clearances and flue install,

I'd like 24/7. Melt the snow and ice off the cars and have a warm garage ready to work when I need to fix a sled before riding or want to wreck on something after work. I wasn't specifically saying that stove was what I wanted. Just showing an example of what is around. Space is an issue, 3ft diameter of clearance would eat up a lot of space in my small garage.

 

[begreen]

If you go coal consider getting a stove exclusively made to burn coal. Hitzer and Harman make them. For a lot more detailed info on coal burning and options go to the coal forums on www.nepacrossroads.com.

 

[Pete Zahria]

If you go coal consider getting a stove exclusively made to burn coal. Hitzer and Harman make them.

Absolutely
Stay away, a long way, from a stove that says wood or coal....

Dan

 

[Jaw818]

The wood/coal stoves are bad? I probably would have leaned that way for more options.

I must say it's somewhat deranged that it's 87 and humid here today and I'm talking about heating options. Haha. If there was a way to bottle this summer heat it wouldn't be an issue.

Speaking of which, has anyone built passive solar heaters? They seem pretty simple and easy. Our winters get a lot of sun. I could build a 4x8 solar heater that could sit next to my garage door and catch all the morning sun. Just don't know how well they work. I know if I park my truck facing the sun, it can be -10 outside and 75 inside the truck. I'd still want an on-demand heat source that would work at night or when it's cloudy. But it might be easier to get away with a type of stove that has shorter burn times. Plus free heat is free. Just don't know if it's worth it?

 

[begreen]

precaud has put up some interesting posts about his solar heaters.

 

[Pete Zahria]

The wood/coal stoves are bad? I probably would have leaned that way for more options.

A coal stove is designed to burn coal. It burns the fuel differently than you would with wood.
A coal stove "can" burn wood, it just usually burns it up pretty fast...
A wood stove can't burn coal.. not well anyway.
So trying to do both, means neither will be "great".. (IMO)

Speaking of which, has anyone built passive solar heaters? They seem pretty simple and easy.

Forget it. You can't capture enough heat to heat up a stone cold garage passively.
Especially with something 4x8 or so...

Our winters get a lot of sun.

But not a lot of it is useful.. the sun travels in an arc,
anytime you are not square with the sun, you are losing efficiency..
I have a 3 season porch with a lot of glass in it... and yes it gets warm out there.
For about 4 hours...
you lose a lot more on cloudy, snowy days!

Here is my opinion on heating garages. For the last 40 years.
If you have a concrete floor, and not much insulation, you need something
that puts out monster heat, if you aren't going to keep it warm all the time.
A pellet stove is great. AFTER your area is warm. Unless you get something
that puts out serious BTU's, it takes a LONG time to get that type of garage
warmed up so that you can work in there without full Antarctic attire...
Of course, you can start the stove up the day before..
wood stove/ coal stove, you are going to need a chimney... big bucks.
Pellet stove, you can direct vent.
I would look to the future and be honest about how much time you are going to
spend out there. If you go with a pellet stove, go with something with a good btu output.
In this scenario, bigger is CERTAINLY better... to get a really cold place, warm...
I keep my little Englander in the 2-1/2 car garage 24/7 in the winter... it's sooooooo nice.....
50-55° all the time... all my stuff stays nice and happy..
If I want to work out there, it comes up to temp pretty nicely...

Dan

 

[Jaw818]

A coal stove is designed to burn coal. It burns the fuel differently than you would with wood.
A coal stove "can" burn wood, it just usually burns it up pretty fast...
A wood stove can't burn coal.. not well anyway.
So trying to do both, means neither will be "great".. (IMO)

Forget it. You can't capture enough heat to heat up a stone cold garage passively.
Especially with something 4x8 or so...

But not a lot of it is useful.. the sun travels in an arc,
anytime you are not square with the sun, you are losing efficiency..
I have a 3 season porch with a lot of glass in it... and yes it gets warm out there.
For about 4 hours...
you lose a lot more on cloudy, snowy days!

Here is my opinion on heating garages. For the last 40 years.
If you have a concrete floor, and not much insulation, you need something
that puts out monster heat, if you aren't going to keep it warm all the time.
A pellet stove is great. AFTER your area is warm. Unless you get something
that puts out serious BTU's, it takes a LONG time to get that type of garage
warmed up so that you can work in there without full Antarctic attire...
Of course, you can start the stove up the day before..
wood stove/ coal stove, you are going to need a chimney... big bucks.
Pellet stove, you can direct vent.
I would look to the future and be honest about how much time you are going to
spend out there. If you go with a pellet stove, go with something with a good btu output.
In this scenario, bigger is CERTAINLY better... to get a really cold place, warm...
I keep my little Englander in the 2-1/2 car garage 24/7 in the winter... it's sooooooo nice.....
50-55° all the time... all my stuff stays nice and happy..
If I want to work out there, it comes up to temp pretty nicely...

Dan

Great info! Does a coal stove require a class A as well? Pellet/corn continues to appear to be the best option. My garage is not insulated currently, but will be. That will be a project that takes place over the rest of the summer, CL specials and insulation sales. May be a bit mismatched but should do the trick and the walls will end up under tin anyway at some point. For my roof I might just do board insulation because I want to keep the rafters open for extra storage.
But as I've said before, I want to keep it above freezing 24/7. Easier on the engines and keeps the snow and ice off. Then when I want to work, a corn stove would allow me to turn up the temp and have it toasty so I'm not busting knuckles on cold steel.
Coal still interests me. How much does a class A chimney run? My 5 ft of direct vent for my auburn ran almost $300, so I can imagine it's a killer.

 

[Bioburner]

Trip to Menards should give you options on Class A. I have a tile lined block for my shop. They also carry some venting but multifuel by order. Only if the temps go way down does my shop want to go below freezing and then if needed I put fire to something. Be surprised how well a slab of cement can moderate temps if the building is tight.