Furnace fan only use?

[elkimmeg]

301.9 Fuel types. Fuel-fired appliances shall be designed for
use with the type of fuel to which they will be connected and the
altitude at which they are installed. Appliances that comprise
parts of the building mechanical system shall not be converted
for the usage of a different fuel, except where approved and
converted in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.
The fuel input rate shall not be increased or decreased beyond
the limit rating for the altitude at which the appliance is
installed.

This code is not part of what was asked of me in the original post but this guestion has come up often concerning bedroom locations. In the past my state based their Mechanical codes on the 1993 Boca Mechanical with the adoption of the 7th edition we now aew part of the International code community. All these codes I had not looked into before but the 2003 and 2006 International mechanical codes have the updates that answer many past questions.

SECTION 303
EQUIPMENT AND APPLIANCE LOCATION
303.1 General. Equipment and appliances shall be located as
required by this section, specific requirements elsewhere in this
code and the conditions of the equipment and appliance listing.
303.2 Hazardous locations. Appliances shall not be located in
hazardous location unless listed and approved for the specific
installation.
303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be
located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following
rooms or spaces:
1. Sleeping rooms.
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exception: This section shall not apply to the following
appliances:
1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air
directly from the outdoors.

701.3 Circulation of air. The equipment and appliances within
every room containing fuel-burning appliances shall be
installed so as to allow free circulation of air. Provisions shall
be made to allow for the simultaneous operation of mechanical
exhaust systems, fireplaces or other equipment and appliances
operating in the same room or space from which combustion
and dilution air is being drawn. Such provisions shall prevent
the operation of such appliances, equipment and systems from
affecting the supply of combustion and dilution air.

918.6 Prohibited sources. Outdoor or return air for a
forced-air heating system shall not be taken from the following
locations:

918.6 Prohibited sources. Outdoor or return air for a
forced-air heating system shall not be taken from the following
locations:

6. A room or space containing a fuel-burning appliance
where such room or space serves as the sole source of
return air.

1. Closer than 10 feet (3048 mm) from an appliance vent
outlet, a vent opening from a plumbing drainage system
or the discharge outlet of an exhaust fan, unless the outlet
is 3 feet (914 mm) above the outdoor air inlet.
2. Where there is the presence of objectionable odors,
fumes or flammable vapors; or where located less than
10 feet (3048 mm)above the surface of any abutting public
way or driveway; or where located at grade level by a
sidewalk, street, alley or driveway.
Exceptions:
1. This shall not apply where the fuel-burning
appliance is a direct-vent appliance.
2. This shall not apply where the room or space
complies with the following requirements:
2.1. The return air shall be taken from a room or
space having a volume exceeding 1 cubic
foot for each 10 Btu/h (9.6 L/W) of combined
input rating of all fuel-burning appliances
therein.
2.2. The volume of supply air discharged back
into the same space shall be approximately
equal to the volume of return air taken from
the space.
2.3. Return-air inlets shall not be located within
10 feet (3048 mm)of any appliance firebox
or draft hood in the same room or space.
3. This shall not apply to rooms or spaces containing
solid fuel-burning appliances, provided that
return-air inlets are located not less than 10 feet
(3048 mm)from the firebox of such appliances.

 

[Marty]

Has anyone ever tried a stand alone cold air return from the furthest, coldest reaches of the house to the vicinity of the stove in order to create more natural heat migration to the further vacated places?

this will only work if warm air is also routed to replace the removed cooler air. Supply without returns are useless returns without supplies equally useless

I remember reading your comment from another thread that ducted cold air would infiltrate into a warm room better than the reverse scenario because of the greater density of the cold air.
My thought is that if you could bring the cold air to the warmest end of the opperation it would effect enough displacement to accelerate the natural migration of warmer air back to the negitive area that had been vacated. Assumeing there were no significant barriers (like closed doors or excessive distances) in its path.

Again ........my thought as well . If your going to put a box fan at the end of the hall and shoot cold down the hall to the wood stove room then why couldn't you run duct work that pulls cold air from one side of the house to the wood stove room. Both ways is going to pull the heat back to the other side of the house as its own return ......will it not ?

I think I'm going to try this some day... but I've got way too many things on my plate to start any time soon.

 

[webbie]

Well, good thing Roos is not a betting man!
Certainly we could pick those codes apart, but they clearly say that one has to be careful with returns......and other appliances.

 

[elkimmeg]

There is no definite right or wrong It is up to the interpeting inspector I donot have the supplemental comentary code book here at home ,
which discusses the intent and thinking behind code interpatations. Actually NFPA 82 has additional codes concerning this but ,,
I thought I would present this as a quick response. There are also codes defining containment and open combustion a wood stove is not sealed combustion

there are other codes concerning manually feed appliances lots of places to look and interpet
I also found codes that require smoke detection requirements in all applications including for all HVAC systems after a certaint vollume is reached.
These can be applied to many new Mac Mansions

 

[Homefire]

There is no definite right or wrong It is up to the interpeting inspector I donot have the supplemental comentary code book here at home ,
which discusses the intent and thinking behind code interpatations. Actually NFPA 82 has additional codes concerning this but ,,
I thought I would present this as a quick response. There are also codes defining containment and open combustion a wood stove is not sealed combustion

there are other codes concerning manually feed appliances lots of places to look and interpet
I also found codes that require smoke detection requirements in all applications including for all HVAC systems after a certaint vollume is reached.
These can be applied to many new Mac Mansions

In other words , code can be bent to justify any decision made by
any local with authority...... until the authority bumps heads with someone willing to sue.

 

[elkimmeg]

Thats one way to look at it Since you are a tax payer and voter I would think you would make sure the best possible person was hired
for you inspector. that being so there would be few law suits. If you don't like your inspector or do not trust hisjudgement then do somethiong about it
you voted him in you pay a piece of his salary.

Our society is bending interpetations you allways direve up to speed limit GW is bending the war acts contitutional rights Clinton defined morals
State of florida is still figuring out balots.

Yes an inspector can bend an interpetation and a law suit has to prove his miss intent they can not question his interpetation only his intent as it is his job to interpet
that what he is hire to be that and enforcement.

I am also willing to be educated, I will listen to counter arguements, IF a strong and valid case is made with enough evidence I am willing to see things from another perspective
I am willing to admitt to others merits or admit when wrong. I just got educated a and will used that learning experience and not to make the same mistakes over and over.

Homefire feel free to use you furnace fan. Your not in my jusisdiction. It make no difference to me what you do. You might as well experience what all others have found out it plain does not work

 

[begreen]

Thanks Elk for providing the specific code. There is a fair amount of common sense in it. But it also seems to indicate that many houses with FA heating systems are in violation if they have a solid fuel appliance. Glad to see that I am code legal on all accounts, though it wasn't by design.

Are there published statistics on the incidence of woodstove failures creating fatalities due to HVAC air distribution systems? Is this a common issue?

 

[elkimmeg]

Elk, I have to side with Mike on this one.

change of heart?

I always felt the forced hotwarer was the cleanest best distrobuted heat, It used to be hot air was cheaper
To further cheapen the system is the missuse of flexuble ducts. Flexible ducts were desigeng to be a cross over uses. The ability to get to hard to reach areas,
They were never intended to be the backbone of HVAC distrobution. They are used for cost savings, They do not replace metal duct work, either preformance
of safety wise, they compromise both. Most are installed improperly further reducing there effectivenes

Research has proven beyond a doubt, that containment afords more time to saftely exit an emergency situation. Having you a mechanical system running during an incident
defeats containment, be it a wood stove incident ,a cooking stove . there is no means for shut down or separation / containment.
One of the reasons smoke detectors are required in bedrooms is the popularity of HVAC systems.


Most buyers have limited concerns the school my childern will go to the neighborhooh bedroom size Not unlike designer lable buying, have to be in the right neighborhood

What is missed in all this is the quality of the home construction.. The most important factor and most are clueless, They don't have a clue what quality construction is and its not the number of bedrooms master bedroom suite. Most are unaware these furnaces are builder specials. That 90 % of all take off ducts are flexible. Returns if any, are poorly located, but they bought the right neighborhood and have bragging rights to sq footage./ There homes waste so much energy as due the many occupants.

I donot know how to stem this appetite or line of thinking. ITS not part of my makeup to be wastefull. I would never recomend safety features to furnaces if I felt them to be cost prohibitid

 

[Homefire]

Homefire feel free to use you furnace fan. Your not in my jusisdiction. It make no difference to me what you do. You might as well experience what all others have found out it plain does not work

As you so eloquently point out you have no jurisdiction,
My system is hydronic therefore no supply or return air to consider.
I simply say codes are so convoluted that anyone can read anything
into them they choose until it is settled by a binding authority.

 

[elkimmeg]

I simply say codes are so convoluted

no dissagreement here, you are so right and it's not getting any better

 

[Mike Wilson]

In other words , code can be bent to justify any decision made by
any local with authority...... until the authority bumps heads with someone willing to sue.

Which is 80 percent of the problem... rank subjectivity.

The International Mechanical Code, part of which is quoted, is normally not applied to 1 and 2 family residential homes. They reference to the International Residential Code.

-- Mike

 

[begreen]

Elk, I have to side with Mike on this one.

change of heart?

I always felt the forced hotwarer was the cleanest best distrobuted heat, It used to be hot air was cheaper

No change of heart, maybe a bit in the mind. I didn't know the code specifics and acknowledge that you are correct in pointing them out. Thanks for the post. I still think that it's a grey area and prone to interpretation when subjected to the real world.

No disagreement on the hot water system front. Forced hot air may be cheaper to install, but not cheaper to run. It's rare to see FA systems installed in the rest of the world.

 

[elkimmeg]

he International Mechanical Code, part of which is quoted, is normally not applied to 1 and 2 family residential homes. They reference to the International Residential Code.

this true I should have completely and correctly identified my source of the code What I presented is also in the 1&2 dwelling code as well exact same wording
I have the entire 2006 International codes on my laptop (my only PC windows computer) including the electrical code gas code and plumbing,the entire 2006 codes including 1& 2 familly dwellings

It would be a bigger issue if it actually worked. Then there is producing an unbalance system if adding additional returns also what it does for Presurization.

There are other sections of the code and NFPA 82 to look into as well. In the end it comes down to interpetation. I think there is enough code refference that part of my view atleast
I have a position that can be interpeted.

If it actually worked then some safe guards might be warranted in the system ITs not that unreasonable to tie HVAC into the smoke alarm system IT already in the code in 1&2 familly dwelling code but the system has to obtain a certaint vollume before it is required