frustration with englander PDV25

[jtakeman]

What a stove will heat for square footage depends strictly upon the heat output of the stove versus the heat loss of the structure it is heating.

It is possible to heat a rather large space with very little fuel usage provided it is well insulated and properly sealed.

This simple fact is overlooked by many and from what I'm seeing on this forum is likely never taken into account when purchasing a stove.

This is one of the many missteps the OP made.

Agreed, But if that same sq feet is a drafty old shack, Don't expect a stove rated(overrated) for 2000 sq ft to heat that space. You'd better get something bigger!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

What a stove will heat for square footage depends strictly upon the heat output of the stove versus the heat loss of the structure it is heating.

It is possible to heat a rather large space with very little fuel usage provided it is well insulated and properly sealed.

This simple fact is overlooked by many and from what I'm seeing on this forum is likely never taken into account when purchasing a stove.

This is one of the many missteps the OP made.

Agreed, But if that same sq feet is a drafty old shack, Don't expect a stove rated(overrated) for 2000 sq ft to heat that space. You'd better get something bigger!

If you plug all of the numbers into a heat loss calculator it will even take into account the drafty old shack situation since that is part of doing the calculation as is using the proper degree day figures for your location and the proper nominal lowest temperature. The drafty part is handled by the air exchange calculation portion of the calculator.

Given a warm enough climate a stove rated up to 800 square feet may be able to heat 2200 square feet including a drafty old shack. As they say, "Just do the bloody calculations and all will be revealed".

 

[jtakeman]

If you plug all of the numbers into a heat loss calculator it will even take into account the drafty old shack situation since that is part of doing the calculation as is using the proper degree day figures for your location and the proper nominal lowest temperature. The drafty part is handled by the air exchange calculation portion of the calculator.

Given a warm enough climate a stove rated up to 800 square feet may be able to heat 2200 square feet including a drafty old shack. As they say, "Just do the bloody calculations and all will be revealed".

Smokey,

I agree with you to a point, What I don't agree with is some of the stove BTU ratings. Some are over rated! Like Breckwells 5 LBS per hour being 55000 BTUs. That would take some magic pellets. (11000 BTU per pound I don't think so)

You see I did my Bloody calculations and it came out to under 55000 BTU's. I was cold with My bigE. Bought an Omega(60000 BTU's) now I'm warm with the same flippin pellets ta boot!

jay

 

[KINGOFTHENORTH]

I must have got lucky, my E has been good.....heats my 1800sqft ranch very well. Ive burned 2.5 tons of penningtons, maybe20 gallons of oil. If it wasnt for this forum,id probaly sound like the frustated one. We have 10-20 below nites all the time, and this stove has been up to the task.....did start burning crappy after about 2 tons but the leafblower trick put a end that issue. Had so much fun doing that to my stove i went and cleaned out a few of my buddies stoves....will have to keep notching this leafblower and see how long it lasts...

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

If you plug all of the numbers into a heat loss calculator it will even take into account the drafty old shack situation since that is part of doing the calculation as is using the proper degree day figures for your location and the proper nominal lowest temperature. The drafty part is handled by the air exchange calculation portion of the calculator.

Given a warm enough climate a stove rated up to 800 square feet may be able to heat 2200 square feet including a drafty old shack. As they say, "Just do the bloody calculations and all will be revealed".

Smokey,

I agree with you to a point, What I don't agree with is some of the stove BTU ratings. Some are over rated! Like Breckwells 5 LBS per hour being 55000 BTUs. That would take some magic pellets. (11000 BTU per pound I don't think so)

You see I did my Bloody calculations and it came out to under 55000 BTU's. I was cold with My bigE. Bought an Omega(60000 BTU's) now I'm warm with the same flippin pellets ta boot!

jay

jay,

If you go back I never said a single word about beliving any thing that was said about a stove. I said do the calculations, if you didn't do the 5lbs/hr * 8200 BTUs/lb (or better yet 7400 BTUs/lb) = 41,000 BTUs/hr (37000) * the efficiency rating of the stove then you didn't do all of the calculations.

It might also interest you to know that it is possible to extract more than 8200 BTUs/lb from wood pellets, however I haven't seen many instances of such.

Smokey

 

[jtakeman]

jay,

If you go back I never said a single word about beliving any thing that was said about a stove. I said do the calculations, if you didn't do the 5lbs/hr * 8200 BTUs/lb (or better yet 7400 BTUs/lb) = 41,000 BTUs/hr (37000) * the efficiency rating of the stove then you didn't do all of the calculations.

It might also interest you to know that it is possible to extract more than 8200 BTUs/lb from wood pellets, however I haven't seen many instances of such.

Smokey

Smokey,

No, I used the 55,000 BTU's the stove was rate(overrated at). I didn't do my home work!! I assumed that it was a 55,000 BTU stove. I lived and learned. My new stove is that plus a fudge factor!

If the pellet manufactor's have to hold a standard. So should the stove manufactors Please don't over rate the stoves. Some dummy's like me. Take it to word

Sorry Smokey, I've rambled enough. But I hear what you are saying. Unfortunatly most stove buyers SEE that 2000 sq ft rating and Think it will heat all homes at 2000 sq ft. I'm sure they won't do the calculations either

I hope you kinda know where I'm trying to come from here
Jay

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The square foot ratings I've seen all have had foot notes attached. The BTU ratings are supposed to be firing rates not output. The stoves also dispense pellets based upon volume not weight so denser pellets will result in more fuel being dispensed. But I do understand where you are coming from.

In case any one is interested the maximum BTUs that a lb of wood pellets can produce is a huge number it is on the order of 37,000 billion BTUs. Which is total mass to energy including all of the lovely ash ;-) .

 

[jtakeman]

The square foot ratings I've seen all have had foot notes attached. The BTU ratings are supposed to be firing rates not output. The stoves also dispense pellets based upon volume not weight so denser pellets will result in more fuel being dispensed. But I do understand where you are coming from.

In case any one is interested the maximum BTUs that a lb of wood pellets can produce is a huge number it is on the order of 37,000 billion BTUs. Which is total mass to energy including all of the lovely ash ;-) .

Sure, Now you tell me! Just kidding.

All I have left to say is, I had to learn the hard(and exspensive) way. Do as Smokey and Webmaster say's. Know what you need before you buy! If you don't know how. Look around there are people that will do it for you.

Also It doesn't hurt to over size the stove if you can(fudge factor). You won't work the stove to hard and you will be a little happier with it.

Webmasters qoute "Expectation are 1/2 the battle" is totally true!

jay

 

[webbie]

"extract more than 8200 btu per pound of pellets".....

I don't think so!

Yes, woods do differ, but when adjusted for moisture the actual heat content of even the best pellets (dried right) is going to be somewhere close to 8000 BTU per pound. Then you have to "extract" the heat, and in general you are only going to get 75% of that or less.

For those who wish to be accurate and not always catch the biggest fish (everyone can't catch the biggest fish), a value of 5000 to 5500 BTU/LB OUTPUT into the room should be used.

I always figure low, because in the "real" world that is the way things work. We don't all have perfectly clean stoves, perfectly dried pellets, perfect installations and instruments to assure perfect setup of our stoves.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

"extract more than 8200 btu per pound of pellets".....

I don't think so!

Yes, woods do differ, but when adjusted for moisture the actual heat content of even the best pellets (dried right) is going to be somewhere close to 8000 BTU per pound. Then you have to "extract" the heat, and in general you are only going to get 75% of that or less.

For those who wish to be accurate and not always catch the biggest fish (everyone can't catch the biggest fish), a value of 5000 to 5500 BTU/LB OUTPUT into the room should be used.

I always figure low, because in the "real" world that is the way things work. We don't all have perfectly clean stoves, perfectly dried pellets, perfect installations and instruments to assure perfect setup of our stoves.

You should note Craig that possible includes ways other than burning pellets in the manner that nearly all pellet stoves do and that I prefer to derate pellets to 7400 BTUs/lb before applying the efficiency rating of the stove.

 

[jtakeman]

Webmaster and Smokey,

When I did the calc's for my new stove. I used a number in between your numbers. I used 6000 BTUs/lb. I also expect to use the hottest pellets I can get when its really cold out.

I think what has also helped me is the heat exchanger is more efficient on the Omega. Running the Omega as close as possible to the BigE. My exhaust temps are about 20 degrees lower. So I am getting just that much more heat from the Omega. A plus I didn't expect. Good thing though, If this stove was undersized. The wife would have had me skinned!

I should be good to -20 to -25 before the old wood stove has to help out! Time to start changing some windows and add that 2nd layer of insulation in the attic!

jay

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Jay,

I always derate both the pellets (after all why would one believe advertising) and the stove (for the same reason) that usually leaves me with wiggle room.

Amen on the windows and cap, however as I mention in the PM look for air leaks especially in regards to any furnace/boiler venting.

 

[jtakeman]

Yeah, I am thinking about one of those infrared surveys to find all the major leaks. Should be worth the money in the long run.

Unless you know a cheaper way to find them???

Jay

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The IR stuff will find a lot of the issues, but might miss certain types of bypass leaks. The IR surveys are usually just part of an audit. I'd consider it a good deal.

 

[OU812]

This may be a stupid question but what is an IR Survey?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

This may be a stupid question but what is an IR Survey?

Not a stupid question, it is done using infrared photography. It highlights temperature differences as seen from the exterior of a building. Hot areas show up one color and cool another. You actually don't want to see hot spots as that means you are losing heat at those locations.

 

[Dr_Drum]

My 2 cents!! You get what you pay for.
Some people expect a $800.00 stove to run like a $3000.00 stove! Not gonna happen

Ditto! ;-)

 

[NEStoveOwner]

I always question the know how and credibility of someone who makes these kind of broad brushed statements . For the most part they are usually made in anger and amost always to cover up their ignorance or lack of knowledge with the task at hand. I happen to know 3 people who have an Englander pellet stoves and like them. They all understood that their stove cost substantially less than many stove shop brands and that theirs lacked an ash pan and required more maintenance.

I personally helped install my neighbors 25 PDV(?) (it heats 2200 sq ft ) and I know for a fact he uses 1.5 bags per day but he is heating his entire cape cod home however he burns it at a medium high rate and it does throw a lot of heat. So I`m gonna question whether your complaints are typical or in fact even warranted.

I posted without anger and have plenty of knowledge and know how buy yet you questioned me. BTW, what you "challenged" me on even Mike Helton said isnt the issue

We all know your Englander has been problem free. I am truly happy for you.

Why is it when someone posts a problem with an Englander you feel the need to discount their claim or problem as not being real when all you have to base your opinion and position is your Field Data of 3 stoves?

 

[slls]

My 2 cents!! You get what you pay for.
Some people expect a $800.00 stove to run like a $3000.00 stove! Not gonna happen

Ditto! ;-)

I didn't pay $3000 for my stove , but close. Have zero complaints about the stove or heat output.

 

[OU812]

That IR photography sounds like a good idea.

 

[jtakeman]

That IR photography sounds like a good idea.

Here's where I got my info. I'm still trying to find a local co. to get mine done.

Good info though.

http://www.infraredsurvey.com/

jay

 

[OU812]

I found some IR cameras on ebay for about $200.00 but I doubt you would get the same results. I know one problem we have right now is leaving the window open for the cat to get in. I have a steel front door and cannot install a pet door so we are losing a lot of heat this way but it rarely gets in the 30's here so the pellet stove still heats the house nicely. I looked at that website and it is a great idea. I wonder how much energy we could save if everyone did one of these surveys. Also, the new stimulus package coming out is supposed to have a bunch of tax credits for saving energy and maybe they will allow the thermography as a deduction. It looks expensive.