Firewood for sale

[Slow1]

I have a friend who is in the "burned all his life" camp. He is a smart guy - engineering type. We can go back and forth on some topics and we both learn a lot from each other. When I started on the wood stove trek I expected to learn a lot from him, but I discovered that wasn't the case.

I think a lot of it is that he simply doesn't consider it something all that complex and worth thinking about much. He gets his wood from a supplier - one that he recommended to me for last year btw. The wood is marginal really - not horrible, but not what I am now willing to burn. Lots of sizzlers in there. I am trying to educate him but it is a slow task as he simply doesn't care any more about it than I really did about the fuel oil I bought for my boiler in years past. He has something that works for him, he's satisfied and has other things more pressing in his life. I thought I would help him get ahead by sharing a CL score with him - some 1 year old oak. Got home and it tested out to be about 30% MC so not too bad so I figure great for next year... he tossed it into the pile for this year and declared himself done until next fall. Ug.

I expect that there are many other folks who share his attitude and approach. The fact we're here posting about other people's wood supplies demonstrates we have a bit of an obsession with the topic. It takes all sorts to make up the world doesn't it?

 

[quads]

Yeah my dad thought I was a jerk for getting my wood done by April, even though I knew I was actually behind...

He still hasn't gotten started on his wood supply for this year, though what he usually does is drop a big oak around December or January (let the sap drop), then just buck a couple pieces and run them through the splitter to burn later that day...at any one time he might have about 3 days worth of wood ready to go. He has no problem letting the fire smolder and spit for hours and hours, because sadly his old stove still puts out a ton of heat that way, and he burns a soda can once a week and then burns a load of pallet wood to clean the pipe...I know, not dangerous at all right?

It's pretty much what I grew up with and that's the way everybody still does it around here, except me. They all think I'm screwy for having several years of firewood all stacked and seasoning. Many of them have now replaced their house stoves with outdoor boilers, which they throw just about anything in that fits through the door. Some of them still heat their garages and sheds with the old potbellies and box stoves. Into which they put their empty motor oil bottles, treated lumber scraps, garbage, and whatever.

 

[d.n.f.]

I would say out my way 80% plus don't even start looking for wood that they will use this year until Sept/Oct/Nov.
I am ahead of the curve slightly getting most of my wood this summer. I should have two cords spare for the following year.
Get out earlier next year to put more in the bank for the following year. Repeat.

 

[semipro]

My grandfather was a wood burner for many many years. He had an old slammer insert in his basement and heated the better part of about 2500 sq ft with that thing for countless years. To the best of my knowledge, wood never seasoned for more than a few months (most seasoned for a few weeks at best) before it was tossed in the fire, often big 24" x 8" to 12" unsplit rounds. He had a huge flue (around 10" x 12") as well. We were talking about his burning years a few months ago and he mentioned how I was over thinking everything. Said he never once swept his flue in the countless years of burning (what I know was green wood) and never had a single fire, and always had plenty of heat with the (green) wood he used. The only thing I can figure is he must have been running that thing so hot all the time that he managed to burn the chimney clean. Then again, they are the type of people that would probably never notice a chimney fire either since the TV in the same room was always blaring at 110 dB. Anyway, a lot of people burn green wood and never think twice about it.

Yeah, I've wondered if burning wet wood at high temps doesn't just steam clean the flue?

I've been meaning to do the calculation to figure out how much of a split you have to burn purely to vaporize the water inside. You could do this for wood of various water contents to see how much wood you're wasting making steam not heat. Sounds like some fun in spreadsheet!

 

[lexybird]

alot of old myths are still taken as fact .seems around my way i hear alot of old school woodburners claim that it is best to have some green wood because
it extends the burn cycle period and therefor your wood wont burn up too fast .somehow this drawnout smoldering effect is desirable also some claim when burning greenwood the steam and unburnt volitels emitted is more dense and suppresses the gases down low and keeps the heat more in the stove and not sent out the flue.of coarse all that sounds like hogwash to those in the know

 

[woodgeek]

I think there are many variables here--but most of you are confusing two related buy not identical issues--burning for a clean flue and efficient burning. If you want a clean flue, then you need to remove all the condensibles (the EPA approach) or keep the flue gases hot/diluted (the fireplace, pre-EPA approach). As always, it comes down to the operator. I can burn dry or wet wood in my pre-EPA POS stove, and when I give it enough air, it burns hot, the stack is clear and the flue is clean at the end of the season. With dry wood I can get the stove operating like that quickly from a cold start, and using less air. With wetter wood I need to build a bed of coals before loading it up, and it needs more air to maintain operating temp. At a given stovetop temp, both wood loads throw the same heat (BTU/h), but the greater air burns up the wetter load faster, and sends more heat up the flue. I have seen this clearly running my own stove over a couple seasons.

So, if you push the numbers for the difference in energy content between 20%MC and 40%MC due to vaporizing the extra 0.4 lb of water per lb of wood, it works out to be only 6-7% (per cord/volume). The noticeable, big efficiency hit comes down to the fact that more air will need to be provided to get the same combustion temp (if it is achievable at all depending on stove design).

I'm trying to explain how 'they' (the green wood/smoke dragon burners) do it--if their setup up allows them (like me) to get a high stovetop temp with 40%MC wood, they will be running with less complete combustion, and higher air dilution. The hot stack will keep their flue 'clean' if they don't 'smolder' for both 20% and 40% wood. But with the greener wood they will work harder on startup, reload more frequently, have 35% vs 50% thermal efficiency (max for dry wood in pre-EPA), and have higher hydrocarbon (but not necessarily smoke) emissions. If you gave them 20%MC wood they might notice that it is easier to light, goes a little further (if they turn the air down) or burns way too hot/fast (if they don't turn it down). And then they could decide its not worth the 'trouble' and go back to 40%MC wood.

If you can get an EPA stove hot with 40% wood, I suspect that it would be operating/emitting like a smoke dragon--incomplete combustion (no secondary) high air dilution, 40% vs 70% efficiency. Don't know, don't drive one. Those guys you should definitely talk to about seasoning.

 

[f3cbboy]

most people that sell firewood dont have the resources it takes to season wood for 2 years and it doesnt bring anymore money.

that is the first time i have seen that written on here in the year that i have been reading on this thread. And it is dead on. I can understand if a person as a businessman would continue to sell wood that isn't properly seasoned, even though it is advertised that way, if he needs to make money and feed his family. (note i didn't say conscientious businessman) Isn't entirely up to the consumer to get what they pay for?

Personally i scrounge all my own wood, so i haven't felt the sting of paying money and not getting what i thought was clearly advertised...

 

[smokinj]

most people that sell firewood dont have the resources it takes to season wood for 2 years and it doesnt bring anymore money.

that is the first time i have seen that written on here in the year that i have been reading on this thread. And it is dead on. I can understand if a person as a businessman would continue to sell wood that isn't properly seasoned, even though it is advertised that way, if he needs to make money and feed his family. (note i didn't say conscientious businessman) Isn't entirely up to the consumer to get what they pay for?

Personally i scrounge all my own wood, so i haven't felt the sting of paying money and not getting what i thought was clearly advertised...

lol what people want on this site isnt what happens in the real world many woods out there can be burnt pretty quick after processing no one talking about selling someone somthing other than advertised. Your reading way to much into it. Two year old hardwood going to cost alot more than 6 month softwood,but I can tell you that I burn 90 percent softwood and heats my house just fine. I sell what I sell nothing more or nothing less than what I burn to heat my own house.

 

[f3cbboy]

smokinjay - post wasn't a shot at you by any means. Just an observation of countless posts on here complaining about not getting what they ordered. Even when i order something i check it out before i pay for it. how i read what u wrote to mean that most people selling the firewood don't even have the space to season for 2 yrs. that being said why would anyone as a consumer expect to get "seasoned" firewood? its' just the way it is if you don't have the resources , time, or the inclination to scrounge.

 

[smokinj]

smokinjay - post wasn't a shot at you by any means. Just an observation of countless posts on here complaining about not getting what they ordered. Even when i order something i check it out before i pay for it. how i read what u wrote to mean that most people selling the firewood don't even have the space to season for 2 yrs. that being said why would anyone as a consumer expect to get "seasoned" firewood? its' just the way it is if you don't have the resources , time, or the inclination to scrounge.

Poor planing on there part, and if they have been around here very long they should know to by next year wood now if they want it "perfect" buy klin dried either way its not all on the wood guy to make it perfect.Just not possible unless your willing to spend more money. softwood is a great medium if you will. For example oak 2 years seson 29 m btu per cord 300.00 bucks soft maple 6 months season 150.00 bucks per cord 20 mbtu a cord whats the better deal? ( you can also find unseason oak 175-200 worth buying now for next year)

 

[Rockey]

Anyone that advertises wood that is freshly cut as seasoned is a POS. It is no different than someone selling diluted gasoline that makes your car get worse gas mileage and advertising it falsely. The onus is not on the purchaser.

 

[smokinj]

Anyone that advertises wood that is freshly cut as seasoned is a POS. It is no different than someone selling diluted gasoline that makes your car get worse gas mileage and advertising it falsely. The onus is not on the purchaser.

lol I hope your not talking about me! Never once did I or Impy anything other that what I have stated..............If you want 2 year season wood buy it.......... Iam not advertising anything but what I have bring your mostier meter with you

 

[ddddddden]

Anyone that advertises wood that is freshly cut as seasoned is a POS. It is no different than someone selling diluted gasoline that makes your car get worse gas mileage and advertising it falsely. The onus is not on the purchaser.

I agree 110%! WTF is the EPA thinking by regulating the stoves, but not the fuel? They don't mandate cats on cars and then let the fuel suppliers sell whatever they want as fuel. There should be a fine for selling green wood, just like the fine for messin' with the cat on your car. It might be tough to enforce, but it would give the consumer some leverage, if needed. Wood sold Nov - March should be presumed to truly be 'ready to burn,' unless stated otherwise, because that's what 95% of buyers are going to do with it. Some buyers are elderly folk, and the wood is their primary source of heat. "Let the buyer beware." doesn't really cut it, and the prevalence of that attitude is one of the things very wrong with this culture, IMO.

 

[smokinj]

Anyone that advertises wood that is freshly cut as seasoned is a POS. It is no different than someone selling diluted gasoline that makes your car get worse gas mileage and advertising it falsely. The onus is not on the purchaser.

I agree 110%! WTF is the EPA thinking by regulating the stoves, but not the fuel? They don't mandate cats on cars and then let the fuel suppliers sell whatever they want as fuel. There should be a fine for selling green wood, just like the fine for messin' with the cat on your car. It might be tough to enforce, but it would give the consumer some leverage, if needed. Wood sold Nov - March should be presumed to truly be 'ready to burn,' unless stated otherwise, because that's what 95% of buyers are going to do with it. Some buyers are elderly folk, and the wood is their primary source of heat. "Let the buyer beware." doesn't really cut it, and the prevalence of that attitude is one of the things very wrong with this culture, IMO.

Ok lets get to the point here there is some smart people out there other than this forum. How do you stop selling to the person thats buying next year wood?(saving money or softwoods that season fast) or you just going to make a judgement call on how you see fit? More government that will solve everything.How about your rules and now all cords of wood is sold by Gov. just the way you want it at 500.00 a mix cord what Iam i saying are gov. 1000.00 its in short supply now.

 

[quads]

I agree 110%! WTF is the EPA thinking by regulating the stoves, but not the fuel? They don't mandate cats on cars and then let the fuel suppliers sell whatever they want as fuel. There should be a fine for selling green wood, just like the fine for messin' with the cat on your car. It might be tough to enforce, but it would give the consumer some leverage, if needed. Wood sold Nov - March should be presumed to truly be 'ready to burn,' unless stated otherwise, because that's what 95% of buyers are going to do with it. Some buyers are elderly folk, and the wood is their primary source of heat. "Let the buyer beware." doesn't really cut it, and the prevalence of that attitude is one of the things very wrong with this culture, IMO.

I disagree. Firewood sellers should be able to sell green wood and you should be able to buy green wood, if that's what you want. Some people buy green wood at a reduced price and then know enough to stack it and wait a few years before putting it in the stove. More "government protecting us from ourselves" is not what we need.

"Seasoned" isn't the problem. It's not the word's fault. It's not so simple; if a firewood dealer is telling you that the wood you are buying is seasoned or ready to burn or dry, but it's obviously not, then he is lying. On the other hand, "seasoned", "dry", "ready to burn", or whatever you want to call it, is very subjective. I could burn green wood if I wanted to/had to, but could that green wood then be advertised as "ready to burn" just because I could burn it?

Relying on the government to do things for us is not the answer. Educating ourselves is the answer. Know what you're getting into and learn from your mistakes if it doesn't turn out to be what you expected.

 

[Slow1]

Anyone that advertises wood that is freshly cut as seasoned is a POS. It is no different than someone selling diluted gasoline that makes your car get worse gas mileage and advertising it falsely. The onus is not on the purchaser.

I agree 110%! WTF is the EPA thinking by regulating the stoves, but not the fuel? They don't mandate cats on cars and then let the fuel suppliers sell whatever they want as fuel. There should be a fine for selling green wood, just like the fine for messin' with the cat on your car. It might be tough to enforce, but it would give the consumer some leverage, if needed. Wood sold Nov - March should be presumed to truly be 'ready to burn,' unless stated otherwise, because that's what 95% of buyers are going to do with it. Some buyers are elderly folk, and the wood is their primary source of heat. "Let the buyer beware." doesn't really cut it, and the prevalence of that attitude is one of the things very wrong with this culture, IMO.

Ok lets get to the point here there is some smart people out there other than this forum. How do you stop selling to the person thats buying next year wood?(saving money or softwoods that season fast) or you just going to make a judgement call on how you see fit? More government that will solve everything.How about your rules and now all cords of wood is sold by Gov. just the way you want it at 500.00 a mix cord what Iam i saying are gov. 1000.00 its in short supply now.

I agree - The problem with tight regulations is that they tend toward standardization. About the only way I can see to really turn firewood into a commodity with a predictable consistency would be to mandate a consistent seasoning process - which would basically lead to kiln drying for all. Hmm... just think of the cost that would be. Sure, folks who manage to harvest their own may do fine, but to those who buy (the very same "elderly folk" who use wood as their primary source) would quickly find the cost rise to the point of being impractical I'm afraid. Plus there would certainly be a need to pay for the enforcement of these regulations - i.e. a tax on the wood. So the spiral will spin. Be careful what you ask for when inviting someone to regulate. Generally speaking you are better off taking responsibility for yourself unless you really want someone else to take full responsibility for you - and then you will give up more than you expect.

Better idea is to utilize existing laws against fraud. Inform consumers and use education against the hucksters. It isn't merely a question of "buyer beware" rather a question of "Buyer be informed" know what it is you want to buy and buy only that. I would guess that the majority of those buying the so-called "seasoned" wood don't even really know the difference. It is written in the manual of stove so who's fault is it if I don't know?