Financially does burning wood even make sense now or future?

[Pinesmoke]

Have to look at my rate in Mass. My electric bill ranges from $130- $175.

That's about what our bill runs.

 

[old greybeard]

Mass and other New England States are effectively paying a carbon tax to force transition to renewables with the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI)and other instate climate legislation. Most of those programs are funded by a surcharge on power rates. Mass also pays a premium for power as power plants even renewable ones are not welcome in the state so a premium is built in to import power from Canada and Northern Maine. The observation is pretty accurate in Mass that a homeowner is better off paying to put solar on their roof or pay for their neighbor to do so (via high electric rates)

If the EPA Clean Power Plan had not been shut down by the new adminstration, New England would have had minimal impact while non RGGI states like PA would need to pay a lot of money to get in compliance. The "dirtiest" power states (mostly coal dependent) who would pay the most to get up to Clean Power standards tended to vote republican in the 2016 race.

And PA has already exceeded the RGGI goals by electric plants switching from coal to NG thru capitalism. The shamokin dam plant supplied 200k homes with electricity from coal. Couple years ago rebuilt as a NG plant, supplies 1 million homes with 90% less emissions than the previous plant. RGGI is a commie tax. Want to reduce emissions, quit blocking pipelines thru NY and make electricity with our NG.

 

[Sawset]

If economics were the reason for chosing a fuel as primary heat source, then the clear winners have already been chosen. Propane and NG in the north, fuel oil north east, electric down south. When it comes to justifying a hobby, there can be any number of reasons. Passion is #1, justifications #2, most listeners only hear the second part and can't relate to the first. After touring the woodlot here and driving by stacks upon stacks, my son in law said, "I used to split wood for the campground when I was a kid, it was a job, but now I just have no desire to". #1 is missing, #2 doesn't register. They really do see the ambiance and comfort when in front of the stove here. But apparently that in itself isn't enough for them to pursue it themselves.

 

[old greybeard]

It annoys me to no end that I'm only 500 miles from you but pay 300% more for electricity. Our current rate is $0.28 per kWh. It's disgusting.

We’d be glad to ship cheap clean NG to you. But pipelines were blocked. So we get even cheaper rates and ship our excess to Europe for higher prices.

 

[all night moe]

If economics were the reason for chosing a fuel as primary heat source, then the clear winners have already been chosen. Propane and NG in the north, fuel oil north east, electric down south. When it comes to justifying a hobby, there can be any number of reasons. Passion is #1, justifications #2, most listeners only hear the second part and can't relate to the first. After touring the woodlot here and driving by stacks upon stacks, my son in law said, "I used to split wood for the campground when I was a kid, it was a job, but now I just have no desire to". #1 is missing, #2 doesn't register. They really do see the ambiance and comfort when in front of the stove here. But apparently that in itself isn't enough for them to pursue it themselves.

Most millennials do not like work at all.

 

[ctreitzell]

Our current rate is $0.28 per kWh. It's disgusting.

yikes, we're not too far from that
high rate is $0.20/Kwh equivalent...and $0.15 in the inexpensive hours

inexpensive hrs are
daily 0130-0759
1230-1359

 

[Sawset]

Most millennials do not like work at all.

But the transition away from wood and coal was decades ago - 1940-50s, then to gas 1980s. Wood heat accounts for only 2% of primary heat now. Adjusting a thermostat requires no obligation other than calling the propane co. For me I like working with wood and all that. I can't blame someone for feeling differently. He's busy running a bunch of camgrounds now and can see him trying to justify his time.

 

[Wildflush]

That's about what our bill runs.

I can see people going to solar that might have large electric bills in Mass or electric heat but I don’t consider my electricity expensive. We have a friend that pays $800 a month for electricity. Great case for solar in that home. Up front cost for solar is $15k- $25k. I can invest that money and be ahead.

I have NG for most of my utilities which is not expensive.

 

[BillBurns]

I agree. I like working with wood, and taming a fire because you can control it . Im hands on for sure. I have oil heat for nights, but the heat just isnt the same as wood.

 

[Caw]

I can see people going to solar that might have large electric bills in Mass or electric heat but I don’t consider my electricity expensive. We have a friend that pays $800 a month for electricity. Great case for solar in that home. Up front cost for solar is $15k- $25k. I can invest that money and be ahead.

I have NG for most of my utilities which is not expensive.

Our house is 100% electric, heat included (heat pump), so it makes lots of sense for us in MA. $33k for an 11.8 kw system. Got $10k back so net $23,000 cost. Its generated 5.6, 11.8, and 11.1 MWh so far since ive has it. So many clouds and rainy days in 2023.

 

[Caw]

It annoys me that it’s expensive to live in our state! It was one of the “most moved from states” in 2023 according to CBS Boston.

It's annoying but it's often listed as one of the top states in the country to live in and raise kids, for good reason. Top schools, access to great healthcare, and proximity to the coast/mountains/cities etc. It's a great place to live you just have to pay for it. I wouldn't want to live here making less than $100k.

 

[Wildflush]

Our house is 100% electric, heat included (heat pump), so it makes lots of sense for us in MA. $33k for an 11.8 kw system. Got $10k back so net $23,000 cost. Its generated 5.6, 11.8, and 11.1 MWh so far since ive has it. So many clouds and rainy days in 2023.

100% agree with you. In my case it would not.

 

[stoveliker]

Try Long Island north shore...
(Solar here too - we had a good net metering set up to which I'm grandfathered in.)

 

[begreen]

Whhhat? This is insane. I buy my firewood 120$/cord delivered at my house.

Will they deliver here please?

 

[joop]

Will they deliver here please?

thats a face cord begreen

 

[joop]

bush cords basically don't exist here everything is sold as face cords

 

[stoveliker]

And what if you specify you want a (face) cord of length 30"?

 

[begreen]

thats a face cord begreen

So about the same price as local wood here. Well, at least it's hardwood I hope.

 

[joop]

maple,birch,ash, mostly. some softwood as filler

 

[marty319]

It's annoying but it's often listed as one of the top states in the country to live in and raise kids, for good reason. Top schools, access to great healthcare, and proximity to the coast/mountains/cities etc. It's a great place to live you just have to pay for it. I wouldn't want to live here making less than $100k.

And a hockey team that knows how to choke.

 

[Caw]

We’d be glad to ship cheap clean NG to you. But pipelines were blocked. So we get even cheaper rates and ship our excess to Europe for higher prices.

I'm good but appreciate the offer but no thanks. NG is a significant improvement over coal but still a fossil fuel in the end. Happy to just use my solar and wood.

I wouldn't mind if they'd build more nuclear plants though instead of shutting them down.

 

[Pinesmoke]

I'm good but appreciate the offer but no thanks. NG is a significant improvement over coal but still a fossil fuel in the end. Happy to just use my solar and wood.

I wouldn't mind if they'd build more nuclear plants though instead of shutting them down.

I wonder how the numbers would run out on a new nuclear plant. Back in the day they where years in the build an expensive. Today that would be even more between higher costs in general and all the new hoops to jump through . I wonder what the break even price per kwh would be.

 

[Caw]

I wonder how the numbers would run out on a new nuclear plant. Back in the day they where years in the build an expensive. Today that would be even more between higher costs in general and all the new hoops to jump through . I wonder what the break even price per kwh would be.

At some point though you do need to consider the environmental impact and weigh it against the profit. I realize that isn't necessarily very capitalistic or "American". NG is better than coal and oil like I said but it still has big drawbacks. Mainly big C02 emissions but there's transportation costs, sourcing it, etc. If there's a way to make nuclear power cost neutral or something close to it I would say it needs to be subsidized.

 

[Pinesmoke]

Subsidized is just another way to take money from your pocket and make you feel good about paying it. It all comes out of our pockets.

I'm getting weary of paying for failed, feel good boondoggles. If something can't stand on its own merit it should fail as non-viable.

 

[begreen]

Subsidized is just another way to take money from your pocket and make you feel good about paying it. It all comes out of our pockets.

I'm getting weary of paying for failed, feel good boondoggles. If something can't stand on its own merit it should fail as non-viable.

Me too. Why on earth do we continue to subsidize the fossil fuel industry to the tune of about $20 billion a year while they pulled in about $4 trillion in profits?