Fast cycle vertical splitter

[Tar12]

They are saying if they don't have it in stock that they can get it for you...

http://tewarehouse.com/GXV390-DE33

 

[Ashful]

Thanks for the link. They're $100 cheaper than Northern Tool on that model. Unfortunately, I seem to be coming to the conclusion a GXV390 is going to be a little light for a 22 gpm pump. I'm going to want roughly 13 hp, and the 390 is only 10 hp. This puts me into the GXV6xx OHV V-twins for Honda, and Subaru has no vertical shaft engine larger than 5 hp.

I'm beginning to wonder it if might be easier or cheaper to convert to a horizontal shaft, and just mount the pump right to the motor with one of the commercially-available mounts. It would improve ground clearance, but it would also change the geometry of the hoses for standing the beam vertical, and possibly make the pump more prone to getting whacked by half-rounds falling off the beam or log cradle.

Got some measurements last night. Just need to think thru the options, now. I don't think there's a 13 hp vertical motor on the market today with a gas tank on it, which adds other complicating factors, but I could be wrong on that.

edit: Actually, Briggs makes one! The 479cc Vanguard 16.0 hp vertical V-twin shows a fuel tank option.

edit part duex: Nope. The Briggs site appears to have incorrect information, according to one dealer I checked, who called Briggs direct to confirm.

 

[jetsam]

Briggs makes a whole line of vertical shaft riding mower engines, many of which are far beefier and cheaper than that Honda.

If you can live with the added complexity and hassle of the electric start, here's a 17.5HP Briggs for $530.

 

[Jags]

My smaller splitter wears a 14.5 hp Briggs electric start (vertical) that was a donor motor from a lawnmower that blew out the transaxle. Smooth and quite. I have had one issue to date with the motor and that was the silly little solenoid at the bottom of the carb bowl (anti backfire solenoid).

Both my splitters are electric start. Love it. On my big boy the start/stop switch is 10" from the control lever. If I need to take a minute or three to reposition rounds or move some splits or whatever, I shut the splitter down. Ready to split - bump the starter and grab the control lever. I might start/stop that splitter 10 times in a couple hours splitting session. Cold weather? Who cares. Spin that sucker over till its running. I personally wouldn't build one without that option.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks, guys. Unfortunately, the Briggs site is wrong, according to the tech guys at Jacks Small Engines. They couldn't find an ordering code for a vertical Vanguard v-twin with a fuel tank, so they called Briggs, and were told that option is actually NOT available. Their web site appears to be wrong.

The only options I have found with fuel tank are:

Briggs 21R7070079F1 (10.5 hp) $710 with recoil starter and tank
Honda V390RTDA23 (11 or 13 hp, depending on who you believe) $844 with electric start and tank

The guy at Jacks said I should be prepared to wait 7 - 10 days for repair parts on the Honda, whereas the Briggs parts always ship from stock, but I don't think that's a deal-killer for me. My only issue is that both seem under-powered for a 22 GPM pump, and there is no larger motor with a fuel tank.

If I grind the motor mounting plate off my machine, weld in a new plate lower, I could convert to horizontal shaft. Then I could mount the pump to the motor, transverse under the beam. That's major surgery, which is nothing I haven't done before, but I was looking to make this a simple bolt-on project.

On a whim, I decided to see if there were any 35-ton machines with 22 GPM pumps, which I could just swap down to a 4" cylinder and get my desired cycle times. They all have motors under 300 cc, which seems to be way under-sized, by account of both the pump mfg'rs and extrapolating the horsepower of 20 - 22 ton machines at 11 and 16 gpm.

 

[JRHAWK9]

I have (broken link removed to http://www.speeco.com/products.aspx?id=95&id2=511) one which states a 12sec cycle time. It has a 4.5" dia. cylinder and a 16gpm pump. I timed it when I first got it and it pretty much had a 12sec cycle time on the nads.

I too would like to speed it up and thought about putting on a larger pump. This would also probably require a larger engine too.

 

[Jags]

Theoretically a 22 gpm pump should be able to be run with 11hp. It probably won't allow for a constant dead head, but for shorter bursts it should pull it. I run a 16 GMP pump with an 8hp and have no power issues. It is very typical to have a 1:2 ratio of HP to GPM.

 

[jetsam]

The only options I have found with fuel tank are:

You want to pay 50% extra for 50% less horsepower to get a built in tank? Those riding mower engines have fuel pumps, so the tank can go wherever.

If you want to get fancy, here's a matching Briggs tank, but I wouldn't pay that.

 

[Ashful]

You want to pay 50% extra for 50% less horsepower to get a built in tank? Those riding mower engines have fuel pumps, so the tank can go wherever.

Yes I'm willing to pay more to have an on-board tank, unless I can come up with a more suitable place to mount one. The added cost is not anything I'm worried about, given we're discussing a difference of perhaps only a few hundred dollars on a tool I'll be using for the next 20 years.

There's not much to this splitter, as in places to mount things like a fuel tank, where it won't be in the way of something, or at risk of getting hit during use. The little bit of free space I'm going to have under the engine mount will likely be used by a battery, for the electric start function, not that I'd want to mount a fuel tank there. But if you have a good idea on how to rig a separate tank for the larger v-twin, I'm all ears!

 

[triptester]

In order to use a 22 gpm or larger pump on your present splitter you have to totally reconfigure the splitter. A larger hydraulic reservoir with at least a 1 1/4" suction line,3/4" or larger hose pump to control valve, and a 1 1/4' return hose.

 

[Ashful]

In order to use a 22 gpm or larger pump on your present splitter you have to totally reconfigure the splitter. A larger hydraulic reservoir with at least a 1 1/4" suction line,3/4" or larger hose pump to control valve, and a 1 1/4' return hose.

Yes, this is mostly correct. We're in agreement on the 3/4" line from pump to valve, but at least half of the 22 GPM pumps use 1" lines on the suction, and I see no reason the return needs to be larger than suction. I was looking at my valve and line sizes just yesterday, and here's where we stand:

cylinder: 1/2" NPT ports
valve: 3/4" NPT inlet and return lines, with 1/2" NPT port to cylinder
supply line: 1/2", easily swapped to 3/4"
suction: 3/4" with 3/4" NPT fitting into bottom of reservoir
return: 3/4" thru 3/4" NPT filter assembly into tank

It's not a problem for me to punch new holes and weld new bungs into the tank, for the line sizes I need, but it does take this project beyond the simple turning of wrenches I had planned. Also, I'm not sure how I'd get the tank clean of metal chips after drilling for the new bungs, which is a concern, as the filter in this system is on the return line!

This may push me toward plan B: buy a 35-ton splitter, and downgrade to a 4" cylinder. This would get me the tank fitting (and line) sizes I need, and give me an opportunity to shop for a 4" cylinder with 3/4" NPT ports. Unfortunately, I haven't found a 35-ton consumer-grade splitter with the horsepower I need, most are under 300cc. It also gets me a much heavier beam than I need for 22 tons, which will just frustrate me every time I want to move the splitter around in my lot, since I end up doing that by hand (without hooking it up to the tractor) most of the time.

 

[Tar12]

This gives you a excuse to buy a ATV to move your splitter around.I leave mine hooked up to Arctic Cat 400 at all times to move it around.

 

[Ashful]

Sounds fun! I use my compact utility tractor to tow the splitter anytime I need to move it more than 50 feet, but typically just muscle it around by hand for shorter distances. The pain of storing more equipment indoors outweighs the enjoyment I'd get out of an ATV, on my small property.

 

[Tar12]

Sounds fun! I use my compact utility tractor to tow the splitter anytime I need to move it more than 50 feet, but typically just muscle it around by hand for shorter distances. The pain of storing more equipment indoors outweighs the enjoyment I'd get out of an ATV, on my small property.

You are not thinking correctly my friend...you buy more land and conquer!

 

[velvetfoot]

If it's flat, this works fine. Amazing what a little grade can do though.

 

[kennyp2339]

I think I only ever had 1 log that I couldn't split with my I&O 20 ton fs, all I did was make a new purchase point with my chain saw and then line the wedge up with that.

 

[Ashful]

I used to rent one of those, and I would stop it several times each day, running thru big gnarly ash and oak rounds. My Huskee 22 ton only makes 30% more force at the same pressure, but that extra 30% must put me in the sweet spot for splitting tougher rounds.

Now, for full disclosure, I was running a higher fraction of tough woods on the I&O, since I was trying to split most of my straight and easy stuff by hand back then. Now that I own a splitter, I just do all of my wood there.

 

[jetsam]

You are not thinking correctly my friend...you buy more land and conquer!

He could even buy some land that has a different house on it so he doesn't have to split 10 cords a year... that'd give him a lot more time to play with the ATV!

 

[Ashful]

He could even buy some land that has a different house on it so he doesn't have to split 10 cords a year... that'd give him a lot more time to play with the ATV!

I don't have to do it now! But I sure do enjoy having the wood stoves going on a cold rainy evening in late March.

 

[Ashful]

A little update, for those following along. I have been working two options, as I find time:

Option 1 = 8.3 sec. cycle time:
1a. 16 GPM pump
1b. Upgrade engine to ~300cc (or just go GVX390, anticipating a future 22 GPM upgrade)
1c. Upgrade suction and return lines to 1". Use thin-wall steel 3/4" NPT with bore ~ standard 1" fittings.
1d. Sell old engine and pump on ebay.

Option 2 = 6 sec. cycle time:
2a. Drain and drill axle tank for 1-1/4" suction and return lines.
2b. Weld in new tank fittings. Clean and paint.
2c. Upgrade pump to 22 GPM (requires welding new pump mount, or cutting out old and buying).
2d. Upgrade engine to GVX390
2e. Upgrade valve to 3/4"
2f. Upgrade cylinder to 3/4" ports ($430 cylinder!)
2g. Upgrade all suction and return lines to 1-1/4".
2h. Upgrade supply and recyc lines to 3/4".
2i. Sell old engine, pump, cylinder, valve, etc.

Assuming I sell all associated materials at roughly one-third of their replacement (likely excepting that cylinder), the cost difference isn't enough to heavily weigh in the decision.

As fun as Option 2 sounds, it has a very high PITA factor, for diminishing returns on performance. I could pull off option 1 in one evening.

 

[kennyp2339]

I could pull off option 1 in one evening.

8.3 SEC is fast enough when working by yourself, also don't forget a bigger filter as your moving more fluid faster.

 

[Jags]

I have option one in my small splitter. 16gpm pump with 4" x 20" ( I am guessing that your cylinder is a 24" throw). Makes for a nice speed. Not lightning, but pretty decent. Never timed it, but I am also using pretty much all 1/2" lines on the pressure side, which might have a small impact on the speed.

I don't get real caught up on the line sizes (as long as reasonable) on the pressure side of the pump. Yes, smaller lines may increase fluid speed and friction (heat), but fluid doesn't compress. Its going somewhere and the only two places it can go is through the proper route OR the bypass (pressure relief). I also have a gauge on mine. At no load and full throttle there is virtually no measurable pressure in the system. This tells me that there is very little "restriction" using 1/2" lines.

I have thought about it a little and I would like to offer an honest comparison...my garden hose. System pressure of my domestic water never exceeds 65 psi and the pump doesn't kick on till a low pressure limit of 55 PSI. I can run in excess of 5 gallons of water in a minute through a 1/2" garden hose. I am sure there is some fancy math using area and pressure and blah, blah that will prove out the line capacity at a given pressure, but even at a couple hundred PSI I can't see an issue considering the system is designed for much higher pressures. Heat is the only place I could see trouble, but the tank on my small splitter never exceeds warm, but in all honesty it probably doesn't get run more than an hour or so before shutdown (beer time).
Just some random thoughts....

 

[Ashful]

I have option one in my small splitter. 16gpm pump with 4" x 20" ( I am guessing that your cylinder is a 24" throw). Makes for a nice speed. Not lightning, but pretty decent.

8.3 SEC is fast enough when working by yourself, also don't forget a bigger filter as your moving more fluid faster.

Yes, I should have listed the filter. In my head, it was included with "upgrade return line".

I'm starting to lean heavily toward Option 1. The only decision I need to make then, would be whether to go with a 400cc motor, to leave open the possibility of upgrading to 22 GPM in the future. More money, noise, more stopping to refuel the bigger motor... or just find something closer to 300cc with a plan to stay at 16 GPM.

There is a safety factor that should be considered, as well. Not so much for myself, but for the two kids who may eventually end up using this. When is the safety gained by not having to prop a 30" round up on a foot plate too long while waiting for a too-slow wedge, exceeded by your reaction time to the errant pinched finger in the path of a too-fast wedge?

 

[Jags]

I don't really find myself irritated from the speed produced on the little splitter (nor the need for more)- occasionally I do with the big boy. Point being that the speed aimed for is subjective from one person to another. I doubt the 2 second differential between pumps will make or break the safety factor. 2 seconds is a world of time for human reaction.

 

[Ashful]

True on the safety, but just to highlight that point, it's 2 seconds over 48 inches travel. The difference between almost 6 inches per second and 8 inches per second, roughly 40% faster.

Will start surveying the motor landscape now, hunting for anything in the 290 - 400 cc space.