EV developments

[sloeffle]

Your experience ordering items from Amazon or Temu because they were cheap should not stand as evidence to over all quality. But rather the priority you place on those items you purchased.

I'm assuming this comment is directed to my comment about my experience with my cheap solar light I bought from Amazon. If it isn't, then that's fine too.

If I'm buying something online, how can I tell I'm buying a quality product or a cheap product ? The only thing I have to go off of are online reviews. You and I both know, you can trust most of those with a grain of salt. The priority I placed on the item I wanted to buy was that I simply wanted a solar light. I should be able to buy a solar light from any online store and have it be a usable product for more than two days. The ones I bought from Costco have been working for years. As a consumer I should expect that product meets quality and longevity standards for the products in that category.

Sorry, but I'm not completely sold on the Chinese building quality "stuff". When I think of quality stuff I think of many brands from the U.S. ( Tesla definitely not being one of them ), Europe, Japan, and S. Korea.

 

[EbS-P]

The ones I bought from Costco have been working for years. As a consumer I should expect that product meets quality and longevity standards for the products in that category.

You inspired my comment but it was meant more generally. I use Amazon when I want something cheap. I’m will to roll the quality dice. Anything bought at a brick and mortar store I can inspect and quickly assess quality. I think Tesla gets worse reliability scores because they want to be and are perceived as a luxury brand. Add to that the millions of lines of code (not counting full self driving ) there just are going to be errors. The first thing I learned as a Tesla Owner was how to perform a reboot and that there are at least three levels of rebooting.

Importers are trying to make an easy buck but there are decent products with really good value. Case in point. My van needs wheel lug bolts torqued to 174 lb ft! Will never use a click wrench that goes that high ever again for anything else?? Probably not but I can get one for $40! Thanks China! It’s need a to be with in 10% for my application. But I don’t want to have to carry another wrench and thinking that I may have to bust off bolts that were put on at 200 lb ft I wanted a big breakover bar. So I opted for a small digital torque attachment. Price $40 takes less space and weight than a can of soup.

Welders are another example. I can’t justify the purchase of a Miller welder. But I can for $100 (it was a Black Friday deal so it may have been less) get a well reviewed stick welder with tig torch. I haven’t used it yet. If it’s defective I’d try and return it. I would say we have a return every month for something that I didn’t read the description well enough or clearly was not operating as designed.

My G660 is another example. It’s a 92cc saw not a chance I could have justified any name brand 90cc saw. But for $500 to my door the saw 28” and 36” bars and an Alaskan mill arrive. It’s been great and I have run gallons of gasoline through it. Was it perfect no. Did the muffler bolts back out yes. Is the choke/kill switch smooth no. Is the air cleaner perfect no. But the value it represents has given opportunities to learn new skills and make the slab table we eat off of every night.

I can’t afford the best of anything. Probably more correctly stated is I don’t see the highest quality products available as representing enough added value for their extra cost.

My parents have 8k miles and 15 months on their Model 3. Not one issue. it doesn’t rattle its fit and finish was as good as the Mazda it replaced. It may do something they don’t understand /expect. Most of the time they just needed to spend more time learning about the software interface. But my assessment is their engineering is top notch and assembly is par for a US made car at decent/large volume.

What I am concerned is that we as a nation are not placing high enough importance on advancing innovation in areas that will result in the US being dependent on China for critical infrastructure needs. We have been the world leader in Defense development. We spent 20 years Funding a war on terror that fiscally constrained defense budgets. Now we are going to see what happens when the research pipeline has been interrupted. Do nothing more than watch 20 minutes of what became of the Littoral combat ship. And why they are still being crewed and the Navy couldn’t scrap them.

That was long and rambling. I am confident that Chinese Manufacturing is on par with US manufacturing. And able to make products available to US consumers that would be accessible to many 20-30 years ago.

 

[begreen]

Well said. China has close to a decade lead in many areas compared to the US. We are behind! Your experience ordering items from Amazon or Temu because they were cheap should not stand as evidence to over all quality. But rather the priority you place on those items you purchased.

Yes, I have a couple of Chinese solar lights, that weren't cheap, and they are remarkable. Even in multi-day cloudy weather they burn all night long and brighten when motion is detected. Before buying, I always look for the lowest 1 star review first. If they are >5% then I move on. In the end, I bought our solar lights from a reputable seller in the landscaping field and not from Amazon. One reason for this is that I suspect that Amazon has become a clearing house for second line products; those that for some reason have not passed first line inspection. I could be wrong, but this seems to be a trend. I will never buy anything from Temu. That is several notches below Harbor Freight as far as I can tell.

Like it or not, China has developed quickly while we kept offshoring manuracturing. As Noah Smith directly put it: "China is the world’s manufacturing superpower, with industrial capacity far exceeding the U.S. and all its Asian allies combined." I sure wish this was not so, but it is a fact we have been denying too long.

 

[sloeffle]

Like it or not, China has developed quickly while we kept offshoring manuracturing. As Noah Smith directly put it: "China is the world’s manufacturing superpower, with industrial capacity far exceeding the U.S. and all its Asian allies combined." I sure wish this was not so, but it is a fact we have been denying too long.

The blog article you linked is really good. Kind of scary too.

The problem that most Americans that I know have with "stuff" from China is they perceive it as cheap. I do agree, most of the stuff you buy from Amazon, Harbor Freight, FarmerTec ( I built a 372XP clone )etc, is cheaply constructed to meet a price point. Even if the Chinese were to be allowed to import vehicles into the U.S. I think it will take a long time for them to overcome that stigma. In the 70's, Taiwan had the same issue. Now they lead the world in semiconductor research, and development. Time will tell for the Chinese.

Tesla, I'll just let that one die. When I see them ranked in the top 5 for quality on a J.D. Power or CR report, and Elon is no longer at the helm then I'll be interested in their products. Until then, I'll stick with buying a Toyota, Mazda, or a Honda.

 

[DBoon]

China will manufacture to the purchaser's spec. Ask for cheap and they will provide cheap.

Yes - and left on their own they will provide cheap. That's why if you are going to buy something made in China it is most trustworthy and reliable if it is made by a western brand under close supervision of the contractor's factory or in the western brand's own factory.

And don't misinterpret my comments on China - I don't think their quality/cost culture issues will last forever and the gap will be eliminated. And I agree with others who make the case that it is better to buy the 1/3 cost tool made in China that will be used once every five years than invest in the professional grade tool made elsewhere (I subscribe to the same philosophy). But a big ticket purchase has big ramifications if things don't turn out well, and I wouldn't roll those dice on a China-brand car for at least another 5 years, and more likely 10-15 years. First, actual quality has to demonstrably improve with long-term quality achievement demonstrated in western markets. Then, I'll consider that option as a choice.

It was the same for me for Korean cars 25-30 years ago - I would not consider them then but now they are on a likely list of companies I would buy my next smallish EV from.

 

[blades]

Heck I can remember when Japanese made items were considered junk ( 60's) . took awhile but now they are as good as anything else sometimes better.

 

[begreen]

Heck I can remember when Japanese made items were considered junk ( 60's) . took awhile but now they are as good as anything else sometimes better.

Likewise for most Japanese products in the 1950s. Then Sony came out with great portable transistor radios and opinions started to change. Honda, Toyota, and Datsun proved they had better alternatives to the junk that America was putting out in the 70s. They started to take the lead in the 1980s. The fear rose in the country that Japan Inc. was going to take over American manufacturing. (I still have that book.) Now, it's a non-issue for the most part.

 

[blades]

Jap cars 80's tariffs on full assemblies so they started bringing in sub assemblies and finishing here to beat the tax. Here we are some 40-50 years later and the big 3 have basicly slipped back to the the poor quality with 4 times the cost, some of the Jap ones also. Although the Jap companies seem to make good on problems vs the big 3 which just ignore things until a court case goads them into submission.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I think this is government mandated issues vs company fault. Vehicles are getting needlessly complicated. More things in them, the more that can go wrong, and the more it costs to make and repair them.

It’s not the engine that breaks, it’s what’s attached to it!

 

[weee123]

I think this is government mandated issues vs company fault. Vehicles are getting needlessly complicated. More things in them, the more that can go wrong, and the more it costs to make and repair them.

It’s not the engine that breaks, it’s what’s attached to it!

You can’t even buy a plain jane work truck anymore without bells and whistles. Vehicles are ridiculously complex now and computers in them are too interconnected causing unrelated systems to mess with each other.

 

[begreen]

Some of these systems now reside under or in vulnerable bumpers or body panels. What used to be a $2000 repair, now caused the car to be totalled after a fender bender.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

They also weigh a lot. Delete them and you’re saving hundreds of lbs. that allows a smaller engine giving better fuel economy and better emissions.

That’s honestly something I see as a positive from an EV. It can/should be a less complicated system.

 

[EbS-P]

the first fuel injection systems were more complicated than a carburetor. Does anyone want to got back to one where you have to rejet something for high altitude? How about Smokey cold starts.

Has reliability improved in the last 30-40years? No way I want to go back the 4.0L ford V6 that made like 160 hp. Minivans now have at least 275hp.

It’s progress. We are not going back. If plain Jane work trucks made the manufacturers more money they would sell them.
If we valued efficiency over power I think we would be happier. I can get 23 mpg in town in a tall roof sprinter. 2.0L diesel. Twin turbo. One guy in the sprinter forum already has 250k miles on his. Just has to replace the DFP and the diesel catalytic converter. $ 7k. Meanwhile I’m what 2+ weeks for parts. Labor rates are having a huge impact on repair and maintenance costs.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

You don’t have to go back. If it makes the engine run more efficient, keep it. If it doesn’t, get rid of it.

Bodies on vehicles last a lot longer than they used to. Engines last a lot longer than they used to. Transmissions do too. What fails on vehicles that nickel and dime us to eventually get rid of them? It’s not the wear components like brakes and suspension. It’s electronic stuff. Get rid of it. Electric door locks, electric windows, 80 buttons on the steering wheel where the wires are twisting back and forth waiting to break and short…

Engineering has come a long way in the last 50 years. Let’s use it to make this better. Is more complicated always better? If we weren’t turning over vehicles as often, isn’t that better for the environment?

I’m not sure the late 70s and 80s choked down engines should be the pinnacle of engine development, lol.

 

[weee123]

the first fuel injection systems were more complicated than a carburetor. Does anyone want to got back to one where you have to rejet something for high altitude? How about Smokey cold starts.

Has reliability improved in the last 30-40years? No way I want to go back the 4.0L ford V6 that made like 160 hp. Minivans now have at least 275hp.

It’s progress. We are not going back. If plain Jane work trucks made the manufacturers more money they would sell them.
If we valued efficiency over power I think we would be happier. I can get 23 mpg in town in a tall roof sprinter. 2.0L diesel. Twin turbo. One guy in the sprinter forum already has 250k miles on his. Just has to replace the DFP and the diesel catalytic converter. $ 7k. Meanwhile I’m what 2+ weeks for parts. Labor rates are having a huge impact on repair and maintenance costs.

You can throw a lawnmower carb on an old ford 302 and get 40 mpg. Not joking. Of course that would only be good for around town and not really merging on to the highway.

I personally think that vehicles manufactured between 05-14 are the best in terms of reliability, efficiency, and least amount of stuff to go wrong.

I used to work at a dealer. A corroded backup sensor took out the radio, power windows, sunroof, and hvac. If you think that that’s progress and good you’re nuts. That’s how complicated vehicles have become and it’s completely unnecessary. I don’t need my entire phones worth of apps be integrated into my vehicle or have a massaging chair. Give me buttons. Touch screens are a complete no go for me. You would then have to replace the entire module to the tune of thousands. Hopefully it’s not backordered, or if the vehicle is old enough even available.

Edit: Also do you know what’s more reliable than a modern diesel? An old mechanically injected diesel. The problems with modern diesels in terms of reliability issues stem completely from the emissions systems.

 

[begreen]

I think my 2013 Ford F150 had over 70 fuses. There were batches of them in multiple locatations. Tracing down a parasitic drain was not easy.

 

[weee123]

I think my 2013 Ford F150 had over 70 fuses. There were batches of them in multiple locatations. Tracing down a parasitic drain was not easy.

And it hasn’t gotten any easier.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I’d like to see the little triangle windows come back. The last vehicle I saw them on was my father’s 89 Dodge Ram.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

If each item was on its own fuse, that wouldn’t be horrible. I tried to get a fuse diagram for my truck and couldn’t find one. It ended up being the drivers side door lock button was malfunctioning and causing the cab light to stay on.

 

[gthomas785]

I’d like to see the little triangle windows come back. The last vehicle I saw them on was my father’s 89 Dodge Ram.

My Bolt EV has triangle windows but they don't open. Can't imagine that'd be good for efficiency.
My dad also had a truck with the triangles you could flip open, I believe it was an '85 Ford ranger XLT.

 

[begreen]

I’d like to see the little triangle windows come back. The last vehicle I saw them on was my father’s 89 Dodge Ram.

Those wing windows were a favorite breakin point on some cars. Going back further, I'd like to see the fresh air scoops that dumped a ton of fresh air on your legs when opened. This was before cars had A/C. Between the wing window pointing air at you and the gush of air on your feet and legs, 90º heat didn't feel as bad, as long as you were moving.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I did not know that! I can see why they would be though.

Yeah, the scoops were neat. I only remember them on old land cruisers and jeeps though. I’m sure there were others, but I was young and didn’t pay attention.

 

[weee123]

I had an 87 cherokee with the triangle windows and loved em. I had to stick change underneath the latch to make it latch tighter on the wornout seals. I never should have gotten rid of that thing it was so easy to work on.

 

[EbS-P]

I don’t think consumers want simple. they want bling. Those who value quality over bling are dwindling.

I'd like to see the fresh air scoops that dumped a ton of fresh air on your legs when opened

sprinter has fresh air vents that blows in your face! I thought something was broken as hot air coming out and cold