Ethanol Exorcism

[Grateful11]

What Mag Craft said.

I know some guys that won't run anything but 100 octane airplane fuel in their saws. I think they're crazy for what they pay for it but it's their money.

 

[Mag Craft]

What Mag Craft said.

I know some guys that won't run anything but 100 octane airplane fuel in their saws. I think they're crazy for what they pay for it but it's their money.

Yea I do not see that high of octane being necessary. I have some saws with compression as high as 175psi and the 91 octane works just fine.

 

[blades]

Hi Corey, Better due some more research, and not just buy in to the green hype foisted about. Ethanol is not a product you can consume internally ( similar to wood alcohol if that makes better sense to you) so your comparison to liqueurs is off base. Ethanol will separate from petroleum base - shelf life about 30 days. Start to finish Ethanol cost more per btu than petroleum fuel ( same with all most all alternative based fuel replacements at present) - laws of organic chemistry.

 

[Corey]

Small 2 stroke engines run a higher compression ratio then small 4 stroke engines. The higher octane fuel is actually better for the 2 stroke engine. I believe non ethanol high octane fuel at the pump is around 91. Canned fuel for 2 strokes non ethanol is around 94 octane. E-85, I would not run that crap in anything.

To be clear I would NOT run E85 in a saw, or other engine not designed or set up for it, either. But E85 is 105 octane... they don't use it as race fuel for nothing!:

"Compression Ratio" of a two-stroke gets a little complex due to cylinder stuffing, transfer ports, octane reduction due to the oil/gas mix, etc. The actual 'ratio' is often somewhat low, but the cylinder pressure can be elevated due to the stuffing effect. But the basic premise is roughly correct...performance two-strokes often require a bit more octane. Seems the major manufacturers are OK with it, and Husky even goes so far as to recommend E10 with 89 octane rating.

http://www.stihlusa.com/information/articles/gasoline-guidelines-outdoor-power-equipment/

If the proper precautions are taken, gasoline containing a 10% quantity of ethanol can safely be used in your STIHL products.

All STIHL oils are designed to readily mix with gasoline containing 10% ethanol.

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/outthere-news/take-the-ethanol-challenge-by-husqvarna/

Ethanol fuel is an alcohol additive that is commonly used in nearly all gasoline in the United States. It can be used in all current Husqvarna equipment, however, Husqvarna recommends using at least 89-octane E10 gasoline, which is the mid-grade between regular and premium gasoline.

 

[Corey]

Hi Corey, Better due some more research, and not just buy in to the green hype foisted about. Ethanol is not a product you can consume internally ( similar to wood alcohol if that makes better sense to you) so your comparison to liqueurs is off base. Ethanol will separate from petroleum base - shelf life about 30 days. Start to finish Ethanol cost more per btu than petroleum fuel ( same with all most all alternative based fuel replacements at present) - laws of organic chemistry.

lol - I just did the research and put links to it in the previous post. Refer back to those links to show every statement you made above is incorrect.

 

[WiscWoody]

No need for a flack jacket, but I will point out where you're mistaken...



Maybe 30 years ago, but not so according to many recent sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_energy_balance

http://ethanol.typepad.com/my_weblo...rgy-balance-is-confirmed-by-new-research.html

(broken link removed to http://www.ethanolrfa.org/news/entry/usda-report-shows-positive-energy-benefits-of-ethanol/)


…again, about 30 years ago. …natural rubber, latex, hide glue, old phenolic plastics, cow hide leather, etc. If you do have a vintage engine (where gasoline itself has not already destroyed these parts), then keep it away from ethanol containing fuel. But, believe it or not, a decade and a half into the 21st century, we can make plastic withstand simple ethanol.



Anecdotally, perhaps, but not so, according to many formal sources:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly



Some of the world’s oldest drinkable alcohol is pegging the 200 year old mark, so apparently it can keep well. Wanna put a can of “real gas” in your shed and get back to it in even a year or so?

http://io9.com/5695539/worlds-oldest-wine-and-beer-finally-gets-drunk-after-200-years



While this is somewhat true, everyone seems to be hung up on “mileage” … they gladly bash E10 for offering a few percent lower “mileage” and get all google eyed over diesel for it’s few percent “higher mileage”.

At the E10 level, you’re talking a few percent at most, if you look at E85 for flex fuel vehicles, it’s about 15-20% cheaper, offsetting most if not all the mileage penalty. Conversely, diesel is about $1.00 MORE per gallon, offsetting all, if not more than the mileage gain.

Plus, you're comparing $2.50-$3.00 gallon of regular gas from the closest / most convenient store pump to what... $8 a QUART for the joke that is 'True-fuel'. (talk about a scam!) The only way to win there, would be to by the 'true fuel', use it, fill the empty can with regular two stroke mix and re-sell it. Hummmm...



Believe what you want, it’s of no matter to me. If you enjoy spending 100’s of billions if not trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives on foreign wars to keep mid-east oil fields and tanker shipping lanes open, then great. [gosh, we could almost call that a trillion dollar “gasoline subsidy”… makes the few cents per bushel paid back to fellow Americans almost inconsequential, doesn’t it?] But repeating the same tired old rhetoric from 30+ years ago just doesn’t make much sense.

These are biased smoke and mirrors, IMO....

 

[TreePointer]

Seems the major manufacturers are OK with it, and Husky even goes so far as to recommend E10 with 89 octane rating...

...http://www.husqvarna.com/us/outthere-news/take-the-ethanol-challenge-by-husqvarna/

Once again, you deceive. Husqvarna recommends using at least 89 octane if you use E10. It does not recommend E10, per se.

Exact quote:

Ethanol fuel is an alcohol additive that is commonly used in nearly all gasoline in the United States. It can be used in all current Husqvarna equipment, however, Husqvarna recommends using at least 89-octane E10 gasoline, which is the mid-grade between regular and premium gasoline.

"It can be used" doesn't mean that it "should" be or is recommended.

"At least" refers to 89-octane and not E10. If it meant "at least E10," then that implies E10 or a blend with even more ethanol is recommended, which certainly it is not.

Also, if E10 were recommended, why don't OPE manufacturers put it in their canned fuel? They don't.

 

[Corey]

Once again, you deceive. ..

Also, if E10 were recommended, why don't OPE manufacturers put it in their canned fuel? They don't.

Well, you can put the emphasis where you want. I posted the links and exact quotes, so not sure where the 'deception' comes in. It's not like I'm posting hear-say and unsubstantiated rumors.

As to why OPE Mfr's don't put it in their canned fuel. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some ethanol or other alcohol in there to help disperse water and reduce gum deposits, etc. Most fuel additives have some alcohol for that very purpose. Heet is almost 100% alcohol, the beloved SeaFoam is 10-20% alcohol

http://seafoamsales.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/MSDS_seafoam_EN.pdf

(They try and avoid the word 'alcohol' by only listing 'IPA', but if you're familiar with CAS 67-63-0, or google it ...plain 'ol isopropyl alcohol)

But if you had a racket selling a few cents worth of fuel for $8 a quart, you'd probably say most anything to keep the suckers on the line, too. They are truly the quickie-mart firewood bundle of the fuel industry in that there is nothing inherently wrong with $8 a quart fuel (or $ a bundle wood), but the plain 'ol bulk fuel/wood burns just as well.

If you're into dissecting sentence structure, do you find it the least bit curious they claim "ethanol free" but not "alcohol free"?

 

[TreePointer]

Well, you can put the emphasis where you want. I posted the links and exact quotes, so not sure where the 'deception' comes in. It's not like I'm posting hear-say and unsubstantiated rumors.

Now you are just clowning around. You are the one who removed the context and changed the sentence structure to get the meaning you desired. A deception.

Original = "...however, Husqvarna recommends using at least 89-octane E10 gasoline"

Your restructuring = "...and Husky even goes so far as to recommend E10 with 89 octane rating.."

You swapped the positions of "89-octane" and "E10" and totally removed the words "at least." You are not an honest dealer. At this point, I'd say you're just trolling and nobody appreciates that.

I wrote the canned fuel doesn't contain E10. Nobody ever said it didn't contain relatively small amount of stabilizers.

http://www.stihlusa.com/products/technology/stihl-motomix/

STIHL MotoMix® contains no ethanol, allowing it to maintain stability for up to two years after the seal is broken. It can be stored longer and will stay fresh in your equipment during storage periods.

IPA is not a marketing term for hiding the word "alcohol." It was around before we started cramming ethanol into our gasoline. It's simply an abbreviation for a very long word--Isopropyl alcohol or isopropanol or the IUPAC name. It is not ethanol, nor is it present at 10% in the gasoline.

IPA is a much better cosolvent for addressing water in gasloline than ethanol. That's why it and not ethanol is used in Seafoam, HEET, and other such products.

...do you find it the least bit curious they claim "ethanol free" but not "alcohol free"?

No, not curious. If the goal is longer shelf life, stability, not degrading fuel lines and diaphragms and gaskets, or rusting carbs, we want it to be ethanol free, but not necessarily IPA (or other longer chain alcohol) free.

I'd submit that the average person with a weed whacker or chainsaw doesn't know which specific alcohols in certain situations and amounts can be beneficial, but they have become aware that ethanol in gasoline has its issues. Advertising that a canned fuel contains no ethanol is good marketing and truthful without having to get into a chemistry lesson regarding other additives in relatively small amounts.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Sorry I'm late to this party but I couldn't let this BS fly...

Hi Corey, Better due some more research, and not just buy in to the green hype foisted about. Ethanol is not a product you can consume internally ( similar to wood alcohol if that makes better sense to you) so your comparison to liqueurs is off base.

Where the heck are you getting this information? You're clueless... ethanol is not a product you can consume internally? That's the biggest load of bull crap I've heard. Pretty much all alcohol you buy for consumption is ethanol; it is chemically the exact same thing as what is in fuel. And even at the ethanol plant producing it as a fuel additive it can be consumed safely right up to the point that they denature it to make it unfit for consumption (per legal mandate). Want to guess what they denature it with? .5-1% real gasoline... there is nothing special in there, it's just ethanol that had a small percentage of gas added and then that is in-turn added to gasoline at the blender. Yes, you're right, from the point that they denature it all the way up to it's blending and use in engines it is technically "unfit" for consumption, but your post implied that it (the ethanol component) is somehow chemically different, and that is completely false.

Ethanol will separate from petroleum base - shelf life about 30 days.

Wow, and I thought your previous comments were totally false and base-less, then I saw this... if your ethanol fuel is only lasting 30 days you're doing something very wrong... Just in case you haven't been told, you are supposed to store ethanol in gas-cans, petroleum rated barrels/tanks, and automotive fuel tanks. You aren't supposed to store it outside in the rain in an open-top bucket. That is the only way I can imagine your E10 is "going bad" after 30 days.

For those that do store ethanol properly, it has a shelf life measured in years. I just finish rotating through some E10 fuel that was stored in a sealed, air-tight drum for 3 years, that is over 1,000 days (you seem to want to measure E10 shelf life in days I figured I would put it on your scale of measure). I didn't have a single moisture, varnish, oxidation, evaporation, or other age related issue with that fuel. It didn't make my engine die, it didn't eat my fuel lines, it didn't make the world stop... it worked just like it should... stop spreading lies and misinformation...

 

[Jags]

Country Boy is correct in stating that the alcohol must be denatured to make it non-consumable to humans. Before that it is pretty much corn liquor.

I think most everything that can be said about the subject has been said. Closing it down before the inevitable escalation into territory unwanted.