EPA’s Residential Wood Heater Program Slammed by Office of Inspector General

[JRHAWK9]

You can’t even make this up. Now the testing company is bailing on furnaces and boilers after all their mistakes. We will see if they make this right with us.

So, where is there another testing lab? I thought the only other one in the country was nowhere around here?

I did some looking.
There are certified labs in Oregon, Canada (Quebec), Sweden, Connecticut, Czech Republic and Denmark. At least if I am reading it correctly.

EPA Approved Test Labs and Third-Party Certifiers Table | US EPA

Table showing EPA Approved Test Labs and Third Party Certifiers

www.epa.gov

 

[JRHAWK9]

And that’s exactly what they did to us. This whole certification program is now being changed. It’s a shame that our little company has had to be the lab rat for furnaces. Now we would’ve gladly helped them understand what works and doesn’t with the furnace program (like we have), but it shouldn’t have come at our financial and emotional expense.

https://www.westar.org/wp-content/u...tional-RWS-Workshop-IDC-TEOM-Method-Work.pptx

I saw that same email from Alliance for Green Heat come across my inbox this morning. I downloaded and converted the Powerpoint to PDF and attached it.

 

[brenndatomu]

Now the testing company is bailing on furnaces and boilers after all their mistakes. We will see if they make this right with us.

Sounds like they are in over their heads and just want out, sure hope they have the moral fiber to try to make things right with y'all!
Stinks that you will have to travel further to test, but probably better off.

 

[stoveliker]

You can’t even make this up. Now the testing company is bailing on furnaces and boilers after all their mistakes. We will see if they make this right with us.

That is an implied admission of wrong-doing, in my view...

 

[LogCabinFever]

What does this mean for the rest of the wood burning furnaces? Are they aware of the surprise changes?

 

[Micdrew]

A perfect example of an agency created by the federal government to act as the Mafia. They write their own rules and then enforce them, all with no transparency and no accountability to the voters.
What happened here is that the EPA set goalposts that were unattainable and yet somehow Lamppa succeeded in meeting the requirements. So now EPA has moved the posts again. When Republican presidents take office, they usually clamp down on the EPA and the Democrats turn them loose again. I'm surprised that this EPA inspector wrote what he did.

 

[EbS-P]

That is an implied admission of wrong-doing, in my view...

They don’t even want to try again?? They just throw their hands up and walk away. Say what you want about the EPA but it really makes me question what’s going on at the testing labs. Seem like they might need a visit from the OoIG or EPA.

EPA has long had laws against tampering/altering vehicle emissions equipment. Thank social media for lifting the lid on how wide spread the illegal modifications were. We are not to modify the the original equipment on out stoves either. I installed a damper. I’m not concerned about the epa sending me a letter. If I did a full delete in my diesel truck I sure as hell would not put it on the Internet.

I’ve always found the test methods that allowed for crib or cord wood suspicious. How can you have a “standard” that does not have a standard experimental procedure? It’s no accident that the small Aspen C3, and morso got such high efficiency ratings. Smaller stoves have an advantage I think.

If you have been following this topic for more than a year this, the EPAs actions, are not surprising. What is how a testing lab can make a mistake and then just walk away.

 

[blades]

Like every Gov. agency their rules are ambiguous at best. If you ask a question of the IRS, ATF or others, and it extends right down to local level , of say ten employees you likley will get at min 7 different answers and the 11th person to answer will say they are all wrong. I have butted heads with these self inflated desk jockies many times over the past 50 years. Again these are agencys they do not have the authority to create laws unless they are ratified by congress or specificaly sactioned by congress to do so . I do not remember if the EPA was ever given that authorization- my gut says no, but due to various legislation passed by congress ( again ambiguous wording) they sneak between the lines.

 

[dzook]

I don't mean to hijack the thread but the following seemed to me to be relevant to the theme. Varmebaronen was sent a letter from the EPA after they requested to renew their certificates which was not too long before the certification was to expire. The letter gave 10 days to come up with a resolution to the various deficiencies they found when reviewing the test. The test was made approx 5 years prior. The test agency at the time worked to the best of their ability conducting the tests and provided the information the EPA requested at that time. The EPA accepted the results and gave them the certification. Some of the items in the request could be easily fixed like some additional text in the manual explaining what you can and cant burn, smoke detector language, how to exercise warranty etc. However some information simply could not be reproduced without a new test. These items included, close up photos of the individual wood pieces used in the original test, a signature of who performed the conditioning burn in and their qualifications, revise the report to demonstrate the fuel density was greater than 10lb/ft3 , all notes taken by the test personnel during the process, instructions the manufacture may have given to the test agency to make sure the notes were consistent with the manual, among other items. The items for the most part should not have affected the end result and a retest using the same protocol would give similar results so it wasn't a matter of a dirty boiler getting by with tweaking the system. Varmebaronen did not plan on testing all their models again so soon and was going for a renewal certification request since nothing materially changed to require a new test. The manufacturer and the test agency did try to figure out with the EPA what needed to be done but they said considering their experience dealing with the EPA it felt like they were talking past each other and there was not a clear path forward. They were not confident in conducting another test given how much trouble it was communicating with the EPA and how things could and would be interpreted. It seemed to them there was no clarity and anything they did at this time would probably be obsolete in 5 years and most likely new rounds of tests would again be required. Varmebaronen said they had to cut the losses until there is certain clarity within the regulators. I don't know if they ever will come back to USA with certified models if things get resolved with the test methods which at this time to me appear to be "up in the air". They continue to manufacture the lambda models we sold. For the foreseeable future we will continue to support users with parts including any legacy models. Dean Zook

 

[maple1]

I don't mean to hijack the thread but the following seemed to me to be relevant to the theme. Varmebaronen was sent a letter from the EPA after they requested to renew their certificates which was not too long before the certification was to expire. The letter gave 10 days to come up with a resolution to the various deficiencies they found when reviewing the test. The test was made approx 5 years prior. The test agency at the time worked to the best of their ability conducting the tests and provided the information the EPA requested at that time. The EPA accepted the results and gave them the certification. Some of the items in the request could be easily fixed like some additional text in the manual explaining what you can and cant burn, smoke detector language, how to exercise warranty etc. However some information simply could not be reproduced without a new test. These items included, close up photos of the individual wood pieces used in the original test, a signature of who performed the conditioning burn in and their qualifications, revise the report to demonstrate the fuel density was greater than 10lb/ft3 , all notes taken by the test personnel during the process, instructions the manufacture may have given to the test agency to make sure the notes were consistent with the manual, among other items. The items for the most part should not have affected the end result and a retest using the same protocol would give similar results so it wasn't a matter of a dirty boiler getting by with tweaking the system. Varmebaronen did not plan on testing all their models again so soon and was going for a renewal certification request since nothing materially changed to require a new test. The manufacturer and the test agency did try to figure out with the EPA what needed to be done but they said considering their experience dealing with the EPA it felt like they were talking past each other and there was not a clear path forward. They were not confident in conducting another test given how much trouble it was communicating with the EPA and how things could and would be interpreted. It seemed to them there was no clarity and anything they did at this time would probably be obsolete in 5 years and most likely new rounds of tests would again be required. Varmebaronen said they had to cut the losses until there is certain clarity within the regulators. I don't know if they ever will come back to USA with certified models if things get resolved with the test methods which at this time to me appear to be "up in the air". They continue to manufacture the lambda models we sold. For the foreseeable future we will continue to support users with parts including any legacy models. Dean Zook

Best boilers made. Pretty sad state of affairs.

 

[EbS-P]

I don't mean to hijack the thread but the following seemed to me to be relevant to the theme. Varmebaronen was sent a letter from the EPA after they requested to renew their certificates which was not too long before the certification was to expire. The letter gave 10 days to come up with a resolution to the various deficiencies they found when reviewing the test. The test was made approx 5 years prior. The test agency at the time worked to the best of their ability conducting the tests and provided the information the EPA requested at that time. The EPA accepted the results and gave them the certification. Some of the items in the request could be easily fixed like some additional text in the manual explaining what you can and cant burn, smoke detector language, how to exercise warranty etc. However some information simply could not be reproduced without a new test. These items included, close up photos of the individual wood pieces used in the original test, a signature of who performed the conditioning burn in and their qualifications, revise the report to demonstrate the fuel density was greater than 10lb/ft3 , all notes taken by the test personnel during the process, instructions the manufacture may have given to the test agency to make sure the notes were consistent with the manual, among other items. The items for the most part should not have affected the end result and a retest using the same protocol would give similar results so it wasn't a matter of a dirty boiler getting by with tweaking the system. Varmebaronen did not plan on testing all their models again so soon and was going for a renewal certification request since nothing materially changed to require a new test. The manufacturer and the test agency did try to figure out with the EPA what needed to be done but they said considering their experience dealing with the EPA it felt like they were talking past each other and there was not a clear path forward. They were not confident in conducting another test given how much trouble it was communicating with the EPA and how things could and would be interpreted. It seemed to them there was no clarity and anything they did at this time would probably be obsolete in 5 years and most likely new rounds of tests would again be required. Varmebaronen said they had to cut the losses until there is certain clarity within the regulators. I don't know if they ever will come back to USA with certified models if things get resolved with the test methods which at this time to me appear to be "up in the air". They continue to manufacture the lambda models we sold. For the foreseeable future we will continue to support users with parts including any legacy models. Dean Zook

A testing labs livelihood depends on understanding what the EPA wants. If the EPA can’t communicate it that a huge issue but if you can’t work through that with them you aren’t getting any more business. The reality is sold is fuel testing is not enough of their business to care enough to work towards a solution. Other manufacturers have gotten stoves certified. Who are they using?

 

[brenndatomu]

I don't mean to hijack the thread but the following seemed to me to be relevant to the theme. Varmebaronen was sent a letter from the EPA after they requested to renew their certificates which was not too long before the certification was to expire. The letter gave 10 days to come up with a resolution to the various deficiencies they found when reviewing the test. The test was made approx 5 years prior. The test agency at the time worked to the best of their ability conducting the tests and provided the information the EPA requested at that time. The EPA accepted the results and gave them the certification. Some of the items in the request could be easily fixed like some additional text in the manual explaining what you can and cant burn, smoke detector language, how to exercise warranty etc. However some information simply could not be reproduced without a new test. These items included, close up photos of the individual wood pieces used in the original test, a signature of who performed the conditioning burn in and their qualifications, revise the report to demonstrate the fuel density was greater than 10lb/ft3 , all notes taken by the test personnel during the process, instructions the manufacture may have given to the test agency to make sure the notes were consistent with the manual, among other items. The items for the most part should not have affected the end result and a retest using the same protocol would give similar results so it wasn't a matter of a dirty boiler getting by with tweaking the system. Varmebaronen did not plan on testing all their models again so soon and was going for a renewal certification request since nothing materially changed to require a new test. The manufacturer and the test agency did try to figure out with the EPA what needed to be done but they said considering their experience dealing with the EPA it felt like they were talking past each other and there was not a clear path forward. They were not confident in conducting another test given how much trouble it was communicating with the EPA and how things could and would be interpreted. It seemed to them there was no clarity and anything they did at this time would probably be obsolete in 5 years and most likely new rounds of tests would again be required. Varmebaronen said they had to cut the losses until there is certain clarity within the regulators. I don't know if they ever will come back to USA with certified models if things get resolved with the test methods which at this time to me appear to be "up in the air". They continue to manufacture the lambda models we sold. For the foreseeable future we will continue to support users with parts including any legacy models. Dean Zook

Can't like that...yet another thing our gooberment has FUBAR'd

 

[blades]

this typical of agencies like thr EPA, ATF, IRS, State Dept., Forestry & parks, VA , and more. Native americans had it pegged eons ago- "White man speak with forked tongue".

 

[JRHAWK9]

Interesting article that was linked to by Alliance for Green Heat.

Senator gets a closer look - The Timberjay

TOWER— Beginning late last year, Sen. Amy Klobuchar offered critical help from a distance as Lamppa Manufacturing faced a financial crisis stemming from bureaucratic incompetence and …

www.timberjay.com

 

[joop]

bike gangs in quebec used to run poker machines in bars.government realized how much money they were making, pushed them out and took over.just a bigger gang with better equipped soldiers.wake up and smell the coffee peeps

 

[blades]

Epa - in search of a resolution to a perceived problem that they them selves created, anything to justify their pay. ( just like congress)