Englander 30 vs. Summers Heat
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the only concern I have at this point, is the guy at the stove store and the guy doing the tile BOTH tell me that putting a sheet of hardyback or duroc (spelling?) and then laying the tile over that will be sufficient for the 1.5 R requirement however.... I did some research and even went down to the local hardware store.... I have found that either board they use under tile only comes to at most .24 on the R scale.... and the tile way less than thatI dont understand how they get the 1.5 from those numbers..... How can that be right??? all of you with the Englander 30 can anyone tell me that is how they built their pad??? Thanks again everyone for all your help.....
Amusing. Durock, Hardibacker, and Wonderboard are all types of cement or mortar board commonly used for tile backing on floors and walls; I prefer Durock myself. I was planning on using tile over Durock around my existing raised hearth to get the required extension needed for the Englander over the old Earth Stove here. However, as you point out, they are all rather low in R value. Sweeps has a list of R values for many common types of backer boards and brick and tile. 1/2 inch Micore 160 board has an R value of 1.27, the best of the 1/2 inch backer boards. Tile is only R 0.02, though, so you need more than Micore 160 and tile to get to R 1.5.
(broken link removed to http://chimneysweeponline.com/horvalue.htm)
Thanks guys..... am going to go do that search now.... I did do a little looking around on the micore... found micore 300... the place i found sold 4 sheets at 24x48 for around 130.00 but of course... no way to get that here by Saturday.......
A trick to get around the R value is to use air as a spacer and as added R value. This thread is about a guy that installed an Englander 30 on a steel framed floor system for "air" and several layers of Durock over that.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/building-hearth-for-my-new-englander.9950/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/building-hearth-for-my-new-englander.9950/
Mike.... thanks for the phone call today.... Ended up getting the 30..... they are delivering it to the stove store here and they will bring it out when they come to install... turns out my neighbor's son in law does tile work.... so I called him and he is going to come over this weekend.... and get the job done.... the only concern I have at this point, is the guy at the stove store and the guy doing the tile BOTH tell me that putting a sheet of hardyback or duroc (spelling?) and then laying the tile over that will be sufficient for the 1.5 R requirement however.... I did some research and even went down to the local hardware store.... I have found that either board they use under tile only comes to at most .24 on the R scale.... and the tile way less than that
OK, take a deep breath. You are not getting correct info. A single sheet of hardibacker or durock are not going to make the required R value. This is pretty straight forward. Durock Next Gen has an R value of .78 per inch of material. If you want to use that product it will take 2" (4 - 1/2" sheets)of Durock NextGen under the tile layer to meet Englander's requirement for the 30NC. Hardibacker has less insulative value and the sheets are thinner. Figure about R =.5 for one inch of material, or 3" to meet the requirement. You can reduce this requirement by introducing a bottom layer of 1/2" Micore 300. That would have an R value of 1.03. Add a layer of 1/2" Durock Next Gen on top and the tile and you are close enough.
begreen......
THANK YOU. My next question is where do I find that Micore?? the stove place had never even heard of it before..... I am searching now online and cant seem to find any....
It is regionally available. I haven't tried to buy it so I will have to rely on others that have searched for it. This question comes up annually so I will refer you to past discussions.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/where-can-i-buy-some-micore.72058/
Another material that can be used is Fibrefrax Duraboard:
http://www.fiberfrax.com/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/where-can-i-buy-some-micore.72058/
Another material that can be used is Fibrefrax Duraboard:
http://www.fiberfrax.com/
begreen..... I just found a place that sells it and free shipping for right now 20"x72" sheet for 38.00 So..... knowing my hearth has to come out 54", I was going to tile out 60" from the wall..... 20x3=60 so if I cut them in half and double them up.... I can get a 36 x 60 pad which would work.... the rest of the area to be tiled I can switch to the durock as
it is out of the pad requirement range...... so basically I am doing about a 5'x10' area to be tiled.... those 3 sheets of micore will cover the spots where I need the high R.... the rest
of it can just be durock under the tile, correct???
Micore 230 is $37.50 a 20"x72" sheet with free shipping at this site:
(broken link removed to http://www.mantelcraft.com/fireplace-facing-systems/micore-board-cv230/)
It has a rated R value of 1.16 per 1/2 inch of thickness (k = 0.43). You could get 2 sheets and butt them up for the 40 inch width and cut them to the required 53 inches or 60 inches in depth (36 x 60 is not wide enough). Then put Durock Next Gen down over it with an R rating of 0.39, and tile it for 0.02 for a total of an R of 1.57. You will have a one inch plus tile height hearth. You can cover the rest of the non-heat proof raised tile area in 2 layers of Durock, or even with a 1/2 inch plywood or OSB and a layer of 1/2 inch Durock over that. Durock comes in 3x5 foot sheets for about $10 a sheet here. 1/2" OSB is ridiculous at $15.50 a sheet now. Still cheaper than Durock at .48 cents a sq ft vs. .67 for Durock. You screw Durock to the subfloor with special wide screws and tile right over it with thinset mortar. Durock is easy to cut and work with, and does not crumble or crack like Wonderboard.
(broken link removed to http://www.mantelcraft.com/fireplace-facing-systems/micore-board-cv230/)
It has a rated R value of 1.16 per 1/2 inch of thickness (k = 0.43). You could get 2 sheets and butt them up for the 40 inch width and cut them to the required 53 inches or 60 inches in depth (36 x 60 is not wide enough). Then put Durock Next Gen down over it with an R rating of 0.39, and tile it for 0.02 for a total of an R of 1.57. You will have a one inch plus tile height hearth. You can cover the rest of the non-heat proof raised tile area in 2 layers of Durock, or even with a 1/2 inch plywood or OSB and a layer of 1/2 inch Durock over that. Durock comes in 3x5 foot sheets for about $10 a sheet here. 1/2" OSB is ridiculous at $15.50 a sheet now. Still cheaper than Durock at .48 cents a sq ft vs. .67 for Durock. You screw Durock to the subfloor with special wide screws and tile right over it with thinset mortar. Durock is easy to cut and work with, and does not crumble or crack like Wonderboard.
Russ, it looks like I'm too late and you've found a source for the Micore. But if that should fall through maybe my experience can help. I was in your situation about a year ago. I was building a hearth for an Englander 17-vl. (which only requires ember protection but I wanted the hearth to be able to accommodate other stoves in the future) I couldn't find the Micore at the usual places or even at stove dealers. Some folks I spoke to had "heard about it" but didn't know where to find it. So, since Micore is a USG (US Gypsum) product I searched the Web (the 'where to buy' tool on the USG site wasn't helpful for me) for local dealers in "acoustical wall panels" or for any indication that a local business handled any USG products. I just started cold calling them until I found a place that had it. It ended up being a place that deals in interior wall and ceiling panels (Western Interior Supply, Denver, CO). You didn't indicate where you live but if you are in or near a reasonably urban area there is probably a similar dealer somewhere in the area. (not to gloat, but 4' by 8' sheets were only $25 or $30 and they forklifted a stack of them to the dock so I could choose the ones I wanted and then they offered to help load) (I'm not sure they quite understood what I was doing with them but they were really a great help)
The other potential source for Micore is the core of office cubicle walls. Evidently it absorbs sound and holds pushpins really well. As part of my search for the Micore, I had already spoken to several local office equipment resellers/recyclers who were willing to let me make an offer on some of their used, mismatched cubicle walls.
As far as the hearth, on a platform of 2 by 4s I sandwiched two layers of the 1/2 inch Micore between 3/4 inch plywood and the tilebacker and finished with heavy floor tiles (giving an R value in the mid 2 to 3 range). After noticing how easily the Micore can be gouged, broken (don't drop it on a corner) and cut with a utility knife, I was curious how it would do under a load. Given the solid base of the 2 x 4s and the 3/4" plywood and then the tilebacker and tile to distribute the weight on top there has been no indication of any problems.
Finally, I'm no pro but I would guess that if you have the Micore under the appropriate area/footprint of the stove to meet the requirements, the bordering tile can be placed over just the tilebacker. I'd just make sure whatever you use in place of the Micore is the same height so that there is no significant step off.
The other potential source for Micore is the core of office cubicle walls. Evidently it absorbs sound and holds pushpins really well. As part of my search for the Micore, I had already spoken to several local office equipment resellers/recyclers who were willing to let me make an offer on some of their used, mismatched cubicle walls.
As far as the hearth, on a platform of 2 by 4s I sandwiched two layers of the 1/2 inch Micore between 3/4 inch plywood and the tilebacker and finished with heavy floor tiles (giving an R value in the mid 2 to 3 range). After noticing how easily the Micore can be gouged, broken (don't drop it on a corner) and cut with a utility knife, I was curious how it would do under a load. Given the solid base of the 2 x 4s and the 3/4" plywood and then the tilebacker and tile to distribute the weight on top there has been no indication of any problems.
Finally, I'm no pro but I would guess that if you have the Micore under the appropriate area/footprint of the stove to meet the requirements, the bordering tile can be placed over just the tilebacker. I'd just make sure whatever you use in place of the Micore is the same height so that there is no significant step off.
StihlHead...... I had to laugh after reading your post.... I have smoked my brain so much in the last 24 hours trying to figure this thing out that my brain started to change the numbers in my head... thanks for slapping me and bringing me around... when I found that micore board..... somehow I changed the width requirements from 39 to 34".... I cant
believe that the people who would be held responsible if something went wrong, are telling me it is ok with the one sheet of durock and the tile and the person who does not know
anything is the one who is saying to hold on for a sec.... (me) of course, it would be MY family who burns up so I have extra incentive I guess....
DenverDan.... thanks for the response... and maybe you were not too late... I am going to spend the day trying to find it local anyway that I can... if that doesnt work then I will have
to hold up the project and order it online.... now the guy who is doing the tile wants to start friday (tomorrow) instead of sat...... so If I cant find it local..... things are just going to have to slow down until the shipment gets here... Now at least I know why he is in a rush.... He leaves Monday for disneyland with his family..... LOL..... will check in later and let
you guys know what I found....
HEY GUYS... YOU ARE NOT GONNA BELIEVE IT
Long story short.... i was following links everyone gave me.... I went to the Fireside.com link and tried.... closest storewas in Washington.... Nobody answered.... next closest.... Tucson, Arizona.... got a hold of a lady there.... and when I told her where i lived (Oregon) and I needed some
Micore board.... she said to me doesnt anyone up there sell Heatilater wood stoves? I told her yes... and she said anyone who sells Heatilators can get it and gave me the part
numbers for them to order.... they are....... HX-3 or HX-4...... so I call the stove shop who is installing my Englander.... because THEY sell heatilators.... the guy i have been
working with still didnt know what it was... but he was going to call and see if he could get some..... then I remembered that a local hardware store here... kind of a scaled down
version of a Home Depot or Lowes also sells Heatilator wood stoves....... so I called....... got put on hold for a few.... then the lady says... YES.... we sell Micore board
they sell 4' by 8' for 37$ a sheet and it is the Micore 300....... so thanks everyone
! I am on my way to get some now...... if anyone needs some I would call them and see about it shipping out.......... Diamond Home Improvement..... Grants Pass, Oregon......... 541-471-4300 gotta run... headed down there now........Micore 300 has a K value of 0.49, so 1/2 inch has R = 1.03 + 1/2 inch Durock NG has R = 0.39 + tile has R = 0.02 for R = 1.42 total. Not quite R 1.5... Two layers of 1/2 inch Micore 300 will get you there and then some.
The only other thing about Micore 300 is that it is somewhat pliable/flexible. From what I read about it, they use it on rough and uneven surfaces to flatten them out. Also put the Micore down first, then put the Durock on top, secure it with Durock screws, and tile on top of the Durock using thinset.
The only other thing about Micore 300 is that it is somewhat pliable/flexible. From what I read about it, they use it on rough and uneven surfaces to flatten them out. Also put the Micore down first, then put the Durock on top, secure it with Durock screws, and tile on top of the Durock using thinset.
hey russ,
talked to your tile guy today. seems like he has a good head on his shoulders i think he's got this thing figured out.
really nice dude BTW
talked to your tile guy today. seems like he has a good head on his shoulders i think he's got this thing figured out.
really nice dude BTW
Mike... thanks for everything.... I spoke to him shortly after he spoke to you... he said the same about you.... I think he understands more now... He didnt understand
the whole R value thing.... he thought I was being paranoid.... but he has a better understanding of it now... I just wish I could have gotten my hands on some 3/4" micore....
there would have been no issues and the wife could have one flat area tiled instead of raising it up..... that has been the biggest issue with this thing... keeping my family safe
at the same time trying hard to give her what SHE wants.... and what she DIDNT want was for any part of it to be higher than the other for anyone to trip on.... my youngest is
just about to turn three... so didnt want any accidents.... the other part is, the tile guy is hell bent on getting this done THIS weekend as I believe he is going on vacation but that didnt leave me any time to educate myself and get the right materials for achieving the 1.5 R value.... I wish I would have just dug into it a little more and realized the whole R value thing BEFORE I called him.... the stove people cant install until the 19th anyways.... so I thought I had time.... when we decided to go with doing the tile instead of the pre fab monster sized hearth... it was the only choice to call him as he is a good family friend.... with all the phone calls I have made in the last 48 hours, I have come to the realization that the stove people at least around here our ignorant when it comes to the Englander.... NONE of them even knew a thing about them.... INCLUDING the guy who Home Depot farms out the installations too! That one blew me away.... I asked him how in the world he could not know anything about the Englander when Home Depot sends all its customers to YOU for the install? All I got was silence... LOL...... but I think we have it all worked out and I am done.... Was I overreacting to the 1.5 R value thing??? EVERYBODY locally told me not to worry about it... but everything everyone here on the forum told me i HAVE to have the 1.5 anyways... Mike... Thank you as well as everyone for all the help and advice... I am so tired of all of this that I am just ready to pack up and move back to the desert... LOL.....
hey, hang in there russ,
home improvement projects can be a bugger sometimes, but the bottom line is , do it right the first time. "measure twice cut once" the timing of this is the biggest issue coordinating on the fly can make for acid reflux on a nuclear scale. but when its done, and done correctly, you're gonna sit back with a beer and say "wow, this turned out great!" i know , ive been there , ive literally remodeled this whole house room by room over the last decade and a half. i can see the finish line just coming up on the horizon. ive done the whole thing myself except for some wiring which i had to have a journeyman oversee and help me with. i know the "azzache" but trust me when its done and you know its to code sleep will come easy
You do not want to tile directly to Micore... not made for that and no string enough material to hold up a heavy stove. Durock is made for tiling, and for being a substrate for flooring.
I found that making my ex happy was simply impossible. So you just have to go with structural and code requirements, and live with her dislikes. Short of redesigning the house there is not much that you can do to make a level hearth. As for the R value thing, if you have home insurance, or are ever inspected by the building dept. for the stove or anything else, or you have a fire and they investigate? All those things require that you have the correct heat insulation in the hearth for the stove. The building dept. here will refer to the Englander requirements.
Everyone says it is no big deal until is becomes one, and then they are all suddenly nowhere to be found. I found that out when I was flagged for my non-permit garage here. Oregon can be a PITA when it comes to code enforcement. Some counties in OR are a real bytch and others are more slack. Code enforcement in my county is a PITA, and there as a big flap over it in the paper here last week here. A guy had some new plumbing inspected on his 70 year old house, and the inspector noticed some non-code work done previously and flagged it. That led to more than a year of remodeling, huge costs and issues with permits and county code enforcement and updates. He has since released a published account of the whole thing and submitted it to the state.
I found that making my ex happy was simply impossible. So you just have to go with structural and code requirements, and live with her dislikes. Short of redesigning the house there is not much that you can do to make a level hearth. As for the R value thing, if you have home insurance, or are ever inspected by the building dept. for the stove or anything else, or you have a fire and they investigate? All those things require that you have the correct heat insulation in the hearth for the stove. The building dept. here will refer to the Englander requirements.
Everyone says it is no big deal until is becomes one, and then they are all suddenly nowhere to be found. I found that out when I was flagged for my non-permit garage here. Oregon can be a PITA when it comes to code enforcement. Some counties in OR are a real bytch and others are more slack. Code enforcement in my county is a PITA, and there as a big flap over it in the paper here last week here. A guy had some new plumbing inspected on his 70 year old house, and the inspector noticed some non-code work done previously and flagged it. That led to more than a year of remodeling, huge costs and issues with permits and county code enforcement and updates. He has since released a published account of the whole thing and submitted it to the state.
thanks Stihl......... I just got off phone with tile guy... we will frame in where we are raising with wood.... double layer over the wood with Micore.... then 1/2 inch of durock on top of that so he can tile in......... does that sound right???
Your gonna love that 30.... I love mine. Best bang for the Buck out there and looks Sexy too (I think so) 
My only advice and it was said above, is get next yrs Wood NOW!! The 30 loves dry wood (Cut/Split/Stacked for a year).
Wood doesn't start to season until split. And wood dont season overnight.
My only advice and it was said above, is get next yrs Wood NOW!! The 30 loves dry wood (Cut/Split/Stacked for a year).
Wood doesn't start to season until split. And wood dont season overnight.
El Finko
Member
Woo Hoo ! Another 30 Burner Welcome to the fold. I threw mine one top of the ol' basement slab, so can't say I had as many issues as you. But I can say that you'll love your stove just as much as I love mine.
As I type it's chompin' it's way thru a mixed load of dry oak/ash and wet oak. Get to know it and the wife'll be running around in her skivvies in no time...
! Another 30 Burner Welcome to the fold. I threw mine one top of the ol' basement slab, so can't say I had as many issues as you. But I can say that you'll love your stove just as much as I love mine.As I type it's chompin' it's way thru a mixed load of dry oak/ash and wet oak. Get to know it and the wife'll be running around in her skivvies in no time...
Woo Hoo
As I type it's chompin' it's way thru a mixed load of dry oak/ash and wet oak. Get to know it and the wife'll be running around in her skivvies in no time...
Thanks.... yeah... she runs around in her skivvies now.... maybe it gets better.... LOL.....gonna have the tile work done this weekend.... stove got delivered today to the stove shop
that will do the install..... got a couple of cords ordered from reputable guy here to finish off this winter and already have a bunch lined up to start saving for next year.....
thanks everybody for all the help.... may be a pain in the butt now.... but i know when it is all over it will be worth it....
Yah, that will get you an total R value of 1.03 + 1.03 + 0.39 + 0.02 = 2.47, more than enough to deal with the heat.
I had the wrong K value for Micore 300 above (corrected). From the USG web site Micore 300 has a K value of 0.49, and Durock Next Gen has a K value of 1.92.
BTW, where do you live? I used to live with my ex just east of Elkton.
Hey Stihl....
We live in Cave Junction, Oregon... you familiar with it?? bout 30 miles from Grants pass and about 60 miles from Medford.... we have been here about 5 years...
We moved inland when the wife got diagnosed with fibromyalgia..... I was a medic for 12 years on the coast in Brookings.... I am a correctional officer for a high profile prison
accross the border in California... (do the math on which one... not something i usually throw out there) but moving inland to get out of the moist air for the wife..... she does awesome here in the summer... still gets her quite a bit in the winter but over in Brookings she was in so much pain even in the summer... she is a little barbie... great lookin just model type..... to see her in bed like she is about to die... just killed me.... took us this long to recover from the move and losing everything...... so we are headed in the right direction and actually learning to live off the land grow our own food... raising own beef pig chickens meat rabbits... you name it... do a lot of canning and grow a huge garden... grew up in the big cities so all this is new to me and I wouldnt change it for the world... I love it... and I love her..... so would do anything for her..... but she can drive me crazy sometimes when what I am doing for her doesnt jive with her at the moment... LOL...... she is totally on board with the whole raising of the stove now as of tonight... LOL... she was
saying ABSOLUTELY not earlier today... I GIVE...... LOL...........
I have been everywhere in Oregon, most places many times over. I know Cave Junction well. I have been there many times, selling sheep in Crescent City and off-roading all over up there, camping at Onion Mtn. as well as kayaking the Rogue and the Illinois, and wine tasting. One of my favorite wineries is Foris Vineyards down there. I even did the cave tour 30 some odd years ago when I went through there on my Motorcycle (wild days of my youth, I had a Suzuki GS 750). I have a few stories to tell about CJ. Bigfoot was sited there many times
As for living out of the city, I know what that is about. I bough an acre out here in the boonies... west slopes of the Cascades, about an hour east of PDX. I live a very low profile life here. I used to be an engineer making 6 figures in the SF Bay Area for some very large computer companies. That nearly killed me. My job was off-shored to China and I sold my house in San Jose and moved in with my then future-ex and I got hooked on living out in the sticks. We split up and I bought this place.
As for living out of the city, I know what that is about. I bough an acre out here in the boonies... west slopes of the Cascades, about an hour east of PDX. I live a very low profile life here. I used to be an engineer making 6 figures in the SF Bay Area for some very large computer companies. That nearly killed me. My job was off-shored to China and I sold my house in San Jose and moved in with my then future-ex and I got hooked on living out in the sticks. We split up and I bought this place.
I have been everywhere in Oregon, most places many times over. I know Cave Junction well. I have been there many times, selling sheep in Crescent City and off-roading all over up there, camping at Onion Mtn. as well as kayaking the Rogue and the Illinois, and wine tasting. One of my favorite wineries is Foris Vineyards down there. I even did the cave tour 30 some odd years ago when I went through there on my Motorcycle (wild days of my youth, I had a Suzuki GS 750). I have a few stories to tell about CJ. Bigfoot was sited there many times
As for living out of the city, I know what that is about. I bough an acre out here in the boonies... west slopes of the Cascades, about an hour east of PDX. I live a very low profile life here. I used to be an engineer making 6 figures in the SF Bay Area for some very large computer companies. That nearly killed me. My job was off-shored to China and I sold my house in San Jose and moved in with my then future-ex and I got hooked on living out in the sticks. We split up and I bought this place.
sorry guys... I have a question that I kind of need to know asap..... with the englander.... if you put up WALL protection, what is the requirement distance from the wall??? Does it change from 7-8"
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