Just thought of something. The 3 magic numbers only work on heat setting 1 or 2 on most of the older stoves. You mentioned when on heat setting 3.. . If on 3, the magic numbers dont work. Your low trim setting should be set on heat 1. On heat settings 3-9 your control board sets the fuel feed and air automatically.
Englander 25-PVCD: Need help please
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Yes. I'm aware of that. My LFF and LAF were at 4-4-1 at time of original post. I couldn't go any lower with LFF, it just dies out and piles a huge mound of unlit pellets into the pot, regardless of LAF setting. I'm still baffled why the augers dump a couple pellets, a couple pellets, then suddenly 1/3 CUP of pellets that result in a huge flame once they all finally light.
I hate to throw parts at something without knowing the exact cause of the problem but. . I would order a 1rpm motor from pellethead and swap out the top motor. I bet this will fix things. If nothing else, you will have a spare on the shelf which is never bad.
If you go for new motors. I have used these in the past and they worked great. And i do recommend a pair, not just the upper.
https://pellethead.com/product/quadrafire-800-1000-auger-motor-1-rpm-ccw/
https://pellethead.com/product/quadrafire-800-1000-auger-motor-1-rpm-ccw/
Looking at other 25-PVCD stoves, I quickly noticed that the tip of the lower auger is flush or recessed in the auger tube. Mine protrudes from the tube (see image at top of thread). I loosened the two set screws and pushed the auger shaft back toward motor... it moved about 3/8", but it still protrudes. Is this normal?
Can y'all see a change in your flame when adjusting LAF? Whether 1 or 9, I don't see any change in the flame. Not sure if I should see it.
I have some updates to post shortly.
Can y'all see a change in your flame when adjusting LAF? Whether 1 or 9, I don't see any change in the flame. Not sure if I should see it.
I have some updates to post shortly.
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UPDATE:
Installed 2 pellethead 1RPM auger motors. Stove now burns MUCH CLEANER, and hotter. Flame looks more robust and a bit more consistent. IDLE mode still doesn't sustain itself, but it's better.
LFF 3 will now burn for anywhere from 1/2 hour to several hours to half a day, before randomly smothering out. LFF 2 or 1 wont burn for more than 10 minutes still.
I swapped out the control board with one borrowed... no change at all.
I tried MODE C... no change to LFF burn.
I timed the upper auger motor at LFF 3. It rotates approx. 15 degrees (24 increments per revolution) every 14 seconds. It didn't stutter. Wife was watching the pellets drop as I watched the auger motor. When she told me a HUGE dump was dropping, there had been no variance in either auger.
I bought some Douglas Fir Supreme. WOW!! But, I can't burn them. They're too hot to run at LFF 3 or 4. If I ever get this stove to burn at LFF 2 or 1, I would definitely pay the extra for these pellets.
Currently burning LaCrete softwood. LFF on 3 during the day and we re-light the stove multiple times per day after it smothers itself. Change LFF to 4 overnight or if we leave the house, to ensure the stove remains lit. It has occasionally still extinguished at LFF 4.
Installed 2 pellethead 1RPM auger motors. Stove now burns MUCH CLEANER, and hotter. Flame looks more robust and a bit more consistent. IDLE mode still doesn't sustain itself, but it's better.
LFF 3 will now burn for anywhere from 1/2 hour to several hours to half a day, before randomly smothering out. LFF 2 or 1 wont burn for more than 10 minutes still.
I swapped out the control board with one borrowed... no change at all.
I tried MODE C... no change to LFF burn.
I timed the upper auger motor at LFF 3. It rotates approx. 15 degrees (24 increments per revolution) every 14 seconds. It didn't stutter. Wife was watching the pellets drop as I watched the auger motor. When she told me a HUGE dump was dropping, there had been no variance in either auger.
I bought some Douglas Fir Supreme. WOW!! But, I can't burn them. They're too hot to run at LFF 3 or 4. If I ever get this stove to burn at LFF 2 or 1, I would definitely pay the extra for these pellets.
Currently burning LaCrete softwood. LFF on 3 during the day and we re-light the stove multiple times per day after it smothers itself. Change LFF to 4 overnight or if we leave the house, to ensure the stove remains lit. It has occasionally still extinguished at LFF 4.
Why are you continually adjusting the low fuel feed (LFF) & the low air feed (LAF) instead of setting it and leaving it alone? Start with the factory 6-4-1 settings and adjust a bit from there to get your correct burn (It's been so long since I've had to mess with mine, I think I finally settled on 4-4-1, but can't say for sure & I'm not around the stove right now); the lower 3 controls are set and forget once you get the stove right, not something you need to change from day to night. The only adjustments you should be making are to the up/down buttons above the three. I didn't read all of the posts, but I'm sure someone has already informed you that the lower 3 buttons only control the stove when in settings 1 and 2 (left up/down arrows). If the stove is too hot even at the lowest setting and you can't throttle it back without it going out, you may want to look into a different stove!
BTW; I never had much luck with a t-stat on the Englanders, easier to depend on the board. As a matter of fact, I only use the t-stats for my Harman's in set back mode, the pellet use is higher using it any other way (just my person observation).
If you had you would understand that I have been chasing an issue with low burn. I'll summarize the issue... LFF won't stay lit unless set to 4 or higher, but at 4 the burn rate is equivalent to heat setting 5 (upper button). Far too aggressive for MODE 1 (idle). On cold days, the stove spends minimal time in MODE 1, so the issue wasn't obvious. Mild temps keep the stove in MODE 1 longer, and it likes to randomly smother itself with a huge dump of pellets.
Great advice when I can afford a new stove. But MANY others are able to run the same stove on LFF 3, 2, or even 1. And the stove is finally getting close to running correctly, thanks to the excellent knowledge on this forum.
We initially ran the stove manually... MODE 3 until we needed more heat. The thermostat keeps the room temp more consistent without having to constantly change the heat settings. MODE 3 burns a bag of pellets in about 20 hours. Mode 1 with LFF on 4 burns a bag of pellets in about 12 hours. That isn't right.
Went back & read thread, do you have OAK? have you considered purchasing a new burn plate (read; without modifications, they are cheap) and getting the stove back to original and doing things one step at a time to see what works best? As bubba said, not all stoves react the same way. Did you perform all mods at the same time or did you sneak up by doing one at a time to see how the stove acted before doing the next?
OAK, yes. But I did mention a concern that when I opened the hopper to add pellets, the wife said the flame "acted weird". Had her open and close the hopper while I watched, and it went lazy with hopper open. Doesn't always happen though. Seems to me that suggests that the combustion blower flow "path of least resistance" was through a half full hopper and auger tube, rather than through the OAK and up through the pellets?
The stove burned so nasty when I got it... did burn plate mod and leaf vac at same time. Honestly didn't make as much of a difference in the stove's performance as replacing the auger motors with 1RPMs.
I can borrow an unmodified original plate. Would I also remove the plugs from the 2 lower holes?
The stove burned so nasty when I got it... did burn plate mod and leaf vac at same time. Honestly didn't make as much of a difference in the stove's performance as replacing the auger motors with 1RPMs.
I can borrow an unmodified original plate. Would I also remove the plugs from the 2 lower holes?
A little long winded here, but try & suffer through.
How long have you been burning the stove, is this the first year for it? Just a thought, if your stove was extremely dirty and you did the LBT and didn't get everything out (there is usually a lot behind the impingement plate, & everything has to exit past the exhaust blower) some may still be in the exhaust blower area inhibiting the air flow through the stove. With good flow through the stove, opening the hopper to fill shouldn't change things. If you can get your hands on an un-modified plate, I would do it just to try, you can always get one if that turns out to be your problem. Yes, I would even remove the plugs if it's not that much trouble. be sure to clean the stove & flue thoroughly before doing the swap.
I know you said you did the LBT cleaning & the burn plate/pot mods at the same time, perhaps a cleaning was all that was needed. I never do the LBT on any of my stoves (flues yes, but it's still not a replacement for a good old brush cleaning then more leaf blower once all is loosened up). The stoves get removed to outdoors & they get a thorough cleaning every year; this includes removal of motors, augers (chainsaw ball holes work great on the hollow auger tubes), and use of both compressed air & a shop vacuum for every little nook & cranny. This method keeps the stoves trouble free for the season. Make sure you disconnect the vacuum switches when you use the vacuum & compressed air if you go this route, don't ask how I know!
As an example, I have two of the Englanders and both are pre 2006, they burn pretty close to each other with the same settings; I have one friend that has an older one too (2004 maybe) that runs very similar to my two, however I also have a friend that purchased a newer one (2017 or 2018 if I recall) and his stove runs totally different at the settings of the older 3 stoves. On a side note, I (and the friend with the older stove) have never done any mods to the plate or block-off & have no issues, but then again nothing has been done to the newer stove either.. The glass stays nowhere near as clean as the ones on the Harman's but there's a big price point difference between the two brands.
Don't give up, they are decent little stoves & will last a long time with the proper care.
How long have you been burning the stove, is this the first year for it? Just a thought, if your stove was extremely dirty and you did the LBT and didn't get everything out (there is usually a lot behind the impingement plate, & everything has to exit past the exhaust blower) some may still be in the exhaust blower area inhibiting the air flow through the stove. With good flow through the stove, opening the hopper to fill shouldn't change things. If you can get your hands on an un-modified plate, I would do it just to try, you can always get one if that turns out to be your problem. Yes, I would even remove the plugs if it's not that much trouble. be sure to clean the stove & flue thoroughly before doing the swap.
I know you said you did the LBT cleaning & the burn plate/pot mods at the same time, perhaps a cleaning was all that was needed. I never do the LBT on any of my stoves (flues yes, but it's still not a replacement for a good old brush cleaning then more leaf blower once all is loosened up). The stoves get removed to outdoors & they get a thorough cleaning every year; this includes removal of motors, augers (chainsaw ball holes work great on the hollow auger tubes), and use of both compressed air & a shop vacuum for every little nook & cranny. This method keeps the stoves trouble free for the season. Make sure you disconnect the vacuum switches when you use the vacuum & compressed air if you go this route, don't ask how I know!
As an example, I have two of the Englanders and both are pre 2006, they burn pretty close to each other with the same settings; I have one friend that has an older one too (2004 maybe) that runs very similar to my two, however I also have a friend that purchased a newer one (2017 or 2018 if I recall) and his stove runs totally different at the settings of the older 3 stoves. On a side note, I (and the friend with the older stove) have never done any mods to the plate or block-off & have no issues, but then again nothing has been done to the newer stove either.. The glass stays nowhere near as clean as the ones on the Harman's but there's a big price point difference between the two brands.
Don't give up, they are decent little stoves & will last a long time with the proper care.
Nitro on the older stoves compared to the newer stoves. The programming has been revised on many over the years the sticker on the prom will have the revision number on it. The timing has been based on 16 seconds per cycle but i never checked on any of the stoves I’ve had. But may be why the new ones burn diff.
Ssyko, yes that's what we kind of figured with the buddy that has the newer stove (we all know each other) when it was not staying lit at our same settings. I've never had any trouble with mine and have never done the mods; they do black the glass sooner than I would like, but one is in a part of the house that it really doesn't matter & the other is in an outbuilding, so not a priority to view the flame.
wjogert will get it dialed in, he may find out the older stove doesn't react well to the mods when he goes back to original set-up.
wjogert will get it dialed in, he may find out the older stove doesn't react well to the mods when he goes back to original set-up.
Decided to clean the carbon from lower auger and tube. I know these use "pillow" bearings, but I think this is a bad bearing?? I'm presuming that the bearing travel shouldn't be this sloppy? Also found that this 2001 model had the auger gaskets replaced with the 2002-later nylon gasket. Thinking that is probably why the auger sticks out almost 1/2 inch from the tube.
Englander tech support did confirm that the auger won't feed correctly with the incorrect gasket.
Englander tech support did confirm that the auger won't feed correctly with the incorrect gasket.
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Well, I was hoping someone would chime in on the auger movement, but I had to finally just order a bearing, auger, & "old type" gasket.
New bearing is no different in play than the old one.
Old type bearing gasket didn't change anything either.
New auger shaft is just as long as the original, and sticks out of the tube just as far.
Ran it for 24 hours and no change to pellet feed, nor the "smother" effect on LFF.
Wasn't a total waste though. Stove has been rather loud, so decided to pull the upper auger also. Found the bearing was completely packed with hardened pellet dust... it was unable to skew and the rotation was "crunchy". The auger was scoring the tube.
Pulled out the new bearing that I just installed into lower. It had pellet dust collecting in the crevices around the bearing, after just 24 hours of use. Installed the new bearing in the upper and reinstalled the original bearing in the lower. I installed nylon gaskets in both as I honestly cannot see any benefit of the old style, and the new style will prevent that dust accumulation.
Can someone with an older 25-PDVC confirm that the nose of the auger should protrude into the burn pot? (I can only compare to new units and they are all flush with the tube)
New bearing is no different in play than the old one.
Old type bearing gasket didn't change anything either.
New auger shaft is just as long as the original, and sticks out of the tube just as far.
Ran it for 24 hours and no change to pellet feed, nor the "smother" effect on LFF.
Wasn't a total waste though. Stove has been rather loud, so decided to pull the upper auger also. Found the bearing was completely packed with hardened pellet dust... it was unable to skew and the rotation was "crunchy". The auger was scoring the tube.
Pulled out the new bearing that I just installed into lower. It had pellet dust collecting in the crevices around the bearing, after just 24 hours of use. Installed the new bearing in the upper and reinstalled the original bearing in the lower. I installed nylon gaskets in both as I honestly cannot see any benefit of the old style, and the new style will prevent that dust accumulation.
Can someone with an older 25-PDVC confirm that the nose of the auger should protrude into the burn pot? (I can only compare to new units and they are all flush with the tube)
UPDATE:
Short Version = Burn Plate Mod seems to be the issue. I think the mod burns TOO clean for this stove. (skip down to last paragraph)
Detailed Version = Called Englander again. They confirmed that the lower auger should be flush with the tube. We measured shaft lengths, flight lengths, etc. Identical. No idea why mine sticks out, so they suggested I just buy a new shaft from them. Rather than waste more cash, I decided to borrow the shaft from my father-in-laws spare stove.
While removing the shaft from his stove, I remembered discussing the lower settings with Englander. I mentioned that I started with default 6-4-1 and it ripped through pellets... but anything lower than 5-x-1 would die out. He said my older model would have had default 4-1-1. Not sure why an older model would want LESS AIR, but that got me thinking about Nitro-Fish's comment about going back to the original burn plate, so I borrowed that too.
Installed unmodified burn plate, but left the plugs in the lower side holes. Burned dirtier again, but didn't smother and stayed lit for several days. Ordered a new plate. The holes on the aftermarket plate are 11/64" instead of 5/32". I plugged the very upper row of holes (closest to glass). Burns a little cleaner and still stays lit. I've been running 2-2-1 for several days.
ADVICE?
The stove is now burning better than when I got it and stays lit. This is completely acceptable... BUT, I'd still like to get it burning just a bit cleaner, lol. I'm hesitant to make any mods to the burn plate without seeking the knowledge of the forum first. I think there may be a medium between the stock plate and the burn mod. I'd love to hear from Ssyko or anyone who did the trial & error of engineering the burn plate mod.
Short Version = Burn Plate Mod seems to be the issue. I think the mod burns TOO clean for this stove. (skip down to last paragraph)
Detailed Version = Called Englander again. They confirmed that the lower auger should be flush with the tube. We measured shaft lengths, flight lengths, etc. Identical. No idea why mine sticks out, so they suggested I just buy a new shaft from them. Rather than waste more cash, I decided to borrow the shaft from my father-in-laws spare stove.
While removing the shaft from his stove, I remembered discussing the lower settings with Englander. I mentioned that I started with default 6-4-1 and it ripped through pellets... but anything lower than 5-x-1 would die out. He said my older model would have had default 4-1-1. Not sure why an older model would want LESS AIR, but that got me thinking about Nitro-Fish's comment about going back to the original burn plate, so I borrowed that too.
Installed unmodified burn plate, but left the plugs in the lower side holes. Burned dirtier again, but didn't smother and stayed lit for several days. Ordered a new plate. The holes on the aftermarket plate are 11/64" instead of 5/32". I plugged the very upper row of holes (closest to glass). Burns a little cleaner and still stays lit. I've been running 2-2-1 for several days.
ADVICE?
The stove is now burning better than when I got it and stays lit. This is completely acceptable... BUT, I'd still like to get it burning just a bit cleaner, lol. I'm hesitant to make any mods to the burn plate without seeking the knowledge of the forum first. I think there may be a medium between the stock plate and the burn mod. I'd love to hear from Ssyko or anyone who did the trial & error of engineering the burn plate mod.
well the stoves i have bought, refurbished (and modded) ranged from 2004-2011 so i would consider them early models. They all had differences. but controls had the same timing cycle ( 1c = 16 seconds) and i was told by Mike Holten that the programming has been changed slightly over the years, it still had the 5-4-1 stock factory settings. Now the newer models i have not had the opportunity to play with so the factory setting may have changed. One thing to keep in mind is although the englander stoves are an economical line of stoves (not that they are cheap) they are not as refinded as others. Feed shafts are cast and cast marks ground to a somewhat smooth. If the shaft sticks out a bit I don’t think it would make that big of a difference, i do know the auger motors rpm speeds are critical with the delivery of the fuel to maintain a flame. Thats why ESW has the magic 3 numbers. It’s thier way of fine tuning. With what they have told you, You would have to experiment with yours and find that sweet spot. Try your modded plate and close up some holes and redrill
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