Englander 25-PDVC Shutting Off

[mayhem]

My first pellet stove. Used stove that I purchased summer of 23 and ran throughout the whole last heating season without any real issues. Performed regular shutdowns and vacuumings, but I'm sure I'm missing some cleaning details. Have not cleaned inside the stove body, which I suspect may be the root of my problem. I'm using Green Supreme pellets from Home Depot as they are by far the least expensive in my area. Used them last year, seemingly without issue. I'm game to switch if I'm able to determine this is my problem...I'm getting close to having my first ton consumed for the season now.

This year it started out great, ran fine, heats well, sometimes will not self ignite, but I keep a torch nearby in case. Normally run it at 1 1 settings, which keeps the house comfortable. A few weeks ago during a cold snap of single digits I was running it higher to keep up with colder temps, 5 5 on the display. This was when I first saw it shut itself down. I just looked up and saw the flame was out and a few minutes later it was cool enough that the convection fan shut off. I let it finish cooling until it powered off, at this point it had been running straight for a few days or so, so I did a cleanout as the burnpot was piled up with ash that was getting close, but not touching the glass on the door. Relit it and away it went. Since then I have observed it do the same thing multiple times, with yesterday being the most disruptive at 3 self shutdowns. Most of the time there are no unburnt pellets in the pot, but sometimes there are. Hopper is not emptying out when this happens, so I'm guessing one of the augers is either stopping or maybe is jammed, but if it were jammed I would think I'd hear something. When I start it up, both augers seem to work as I believe they should and the combustion fan runs steadily, there is a hushed groaning sound that I suspect may be coming from the lower auger, but its not constant so its hard to place its location...the other day I pulled the back panel off (dusty and cobwebby in there, need to clean that up as I'm sure its not helping) and I heard the noise once and the upper auger was not moving at that time, but the noise was not clearly coming from the lower auger either, so I'm wondering if its coming from inside where the bearings are...sat there watching both auger motors run silently for about 10 minutes. Both auger bearing housings are greased and in fact, may be over greased. I pumped a couple shots into each last year before the season started and there is grease all over both of them., augers seem to move freely, but I haven't removed the motors to turn them by hand.

When it shuts down I have not observed any code displayed, by the time I realize its out, usually its powered off so the codes are erased I think.

I have a spare auger motor and I believe they're both 1 rpm motors, correct? So I could disassemble, clean all the cobwebs, spray some electronics cleaner on the control board and then replace one of the motors and run it to see if it operates more reliably. Last year the combustion fan was working, but was noisy so I replaced it, this year I've noticed the convection fan is noisy so I'm intending to replace that, kind of wondering if it might be running slow and maybe the stove thinks its overheating? Or the temp sensor that detects overheat might be clogged in some way or otherwise reading higher than it ought to be. I feel like the stove body has been hotter than I recall from last year...its too hot to put my hand on top of the stove while its running for example, but I'm not confident that's not right.

So, I've overshared here, but any helpful suggestions? I'm planning on shutting it down and scrubbing it inside and out tonight. Will maybe replace one of the motors and see if it has an impact or if the groaning noise goes away. I have read there is a vacuum tube that regulates overheat shutdowns I think? Perhaps this is worn or partially obstructed?

Few photos attached showing the condition inside. Its dusty, but looking at it, while it can certainly use a cleaning, nor would I say its crazy filthy.

Thanks!

 

[johneh]

You have had this stove burning for a season and a half and never done a full tear
down air intake to exhaust cleaning That's where I would start and if you can do a leaf blower trick
(do a form search for videos on same) Most burning and fire-going out problems can be traced back to poor maintenance

 

[ericofmaine]

Exactly what John said, she's plugged up. I have two of these and they like to be clean. In addition, those are average pellets you're burning. They produce a lot of ash. Switch to some good softwoods (I know, they aren't cheap) but you'll be surprised how much heat and how much cleaner it runs. In addition, burning at 1-1 for a long period of time isn't helping you either.
To answer your other question, yes, they are 1 RPM motors. It won't hurt to swap the motors yearly, either, to help spread the workload and extend the life of the motors.
As for your exhaust blower, it wouldn't hurt to oil the bearings, a light oil like 3 in 1 electronics oil would work. I do that once a year. Finally, check your room air blower. Mine has a screen over the squirrel cage that clogs up with dust an pet hair. Not only does this make the stove less efficient but can cause the stove to get hotter than it should as well.

Eric

 

[mayhem]

Appreciate the help guys! Thank you.

 

[Washed-Up]

keep us posted…there are follow up moves if the deep clean is unsuccessful

 

[mayhem]

Pulled the stove apart last night, pretty gross in there. Vacuumed and cleaned the burn area, pulled the back plate off and cleaned everything I could reach back there, vacuum port on the right side, fresh air channel, etc. removed the back, took out the controls and hosed it off with electrical contact cleaner, didn't want to get aggressive with scrubbing it, but got all the cobwebs off. Removed the convection blower, it had a couple years worth of fine dust all over it, took it outside and blew it out with some canned air (no compressor available) oiled the outsides of the spindles with extendo motor & bearing oil and ran it by hand to do my best to circulate it. Cleaned the inside of that side of the stove with cleaning wipes. I was going to remove the vacuum line and clean it out, but I noticed the hose itself is quite hard and when I reached forward to the front where it connects to the firebox, I noticed its cracked and slightly crumbled. I assume it will turn to dust if I pull it off and its possible I have a vacuum leak here so I'll order replacement hoses for both sides. Looking at the manual I see they specifically recommend cleaning the port with a pipe cleaner and not a vacuum cleaner, so I may have exacerbated a problem...or created one altogether...but since I'm not getting any E1 displays I'm inclined to think this might not be the issue.

Removed both auger motors and cleaned them off. Thought about swapping in my spare, but decided to run these for the moment. Upper auger feels tight and spins ok, but there are pellets in there so its movement by hand is limited. Lower auger feels a bit more sloppy to me. It has a bit off resistance and the end is easy to move around laterally. Discovered after I remounted the motors and test ran it that the outer collar around the bearings (secured with the allen bolts) were both loose and would not always spin with the rotation of the motor shaft. I snugged all of the allen bolts down, remounted the motors and they seem to be spinning in sync now.

Removed the Exhaust/combustion blower, took it outside and scrubbed it, blew it out...had a bunch of fine ash on the vanes (this is a part I replaced last year as the one that was in it when I purchased it was functional but very noisy, this one is getting noisy now too so it might be time for an "all moving parts" replacement after the winter season) and I removed the ash cleanout on the outside pipe and ran my cleaning brush through the horizontal pipe that goes through the wall, I was surprised at how much ash was in there too, all cleaned out now. Cleaned out all the dust and cobwebs inside this side of the stove as well, didn't even touch the vacuum line on this side (I assume its in the same condition as the one connected to the safety switch) then reassembled everything.

Plugged it in, turned it on and let it run for a bit. It did not ignite on its own, its possible my igniter needs replacing as it doesn't always light itself, but I keep a torch nearby. Got it lit and the controls defaulted to 2 heat, 4 blower so I opted to just leave it and see what it does. Got nice and hot and the blower kicked on and threw a ton of heat. I let it run like that for a few hours, there were no issues, kicked it down to 1 2 for the overnight and went to bed. My wife was up until about 2:30, said it was cranking away. Woke up about 4:30 and it was out and in shutdown mode. Waited for it to go out completely, burn pot had some ash and nothing else in it and there were no errors on the display. Scooped the ashes, hit the power button and gave it about 10 minutes before I went back to bed...when I left it, there were no pellets at all in the burn pot and none visible in the lower auger in the burn area, so I was guessing the upper auger might not have been running, figured if I leave it undisturbed and let it error out, it might provide me with a code to chase. Woke up to a cold stove with s d displayed (shut down) and a burn pot full (but not overflowing) of unburnt pellets. I lit that pile with my torch, turned on the stove and its been burning great all morning.

The adventure, continues...

 

[mayhem]

Just found a video from Stove and Grill parts for Less and it indicated that the burn chamber vacuum switch (above the control panel) will not flash an error code when it activates and shuts down the stove, which if nothing else, seems to fit my symptoms. I know that hose is sketchy so I ordered a coil of replacement line from them and will cross my fingers that this is my issue...if nothing else I think I'm sorting out something that's not right, even if its not my issue at least I can eliminate it and it needs replacing anyway.

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1:51 mark he talks about it.

 

[ericofmaine]

Great to hear it sounds like you have it licked. As for the hoses, if you have a little extra on whats there, just cut off the dried / cracked section and reattach.

Eric

 

[Ssyko]

Nice work Mayhem 👍 glad your keeping us up to date. Usually we are left in the dark!

 

[mayhem]

Update.

Nursed it along over the weekend, just dealing with it going out periodically, letting it cool, scoop whatever ash was in there and relighting most of the time on the igniter, sometimes with the torch.

Vacuum line came in on Monday, pulled it apart after it cooled. Convection side vacuum hose came right off, bit of it fell to the floor as I did so, the first 2-3 inches of hose closest to the combustion chamber were like store brand potato chips. Very hard and brittle. Measure the old one, cut the new one a few inches longer, popped a new clamp on each end and installed. Same procedure for the other line, easy job, hardest part was getting the clamp over the nipple on the combustion chamber without removing the convection Blower.

Fired it up and it ran nicely at 2 3 settings until it I noticed it was out again. Rolled my eyes and went to check it, yeah, dumbass me didn't load pellets, it was actually out of fuel this time. Pushed some from the sides of the hopper into the auger, cycled the power button and verified the top auger was doing its thing before I poured more in. There was enough embers in the burn pot for it to relight itself and it ran steadily until last night when I was watching tv and got tired of the fan noise so I turned it down to 1 1. About 15-20 minutes later I look over and its out. Verified by that it had fuel and the top auger motor was not running at all. I lightly tapped the top auger with my fingers and it started running without any button pushing (I know its an intermittent on motor, I watched it not run for a good 60 seconds before I tapped it). Let it cool, scooped the ashes out because there was a fair bit in there and relit it and its been running since then.

I have a spare motor, new in box, that I'll try to install later today and try the process over again. Think I might kick it back down to 1 1 first and see if there is a pattern or it was just a coincidence.

So, better, but not fully resolved yet.

Unrelated note, what does everyone do with their hopper to make it empty out more as it runs low on fuel? The sides seem like they're not steep enough and whenever it runs itself out of fuel, I'm left with a coating of pellets in the hopper that usually runs all the way up the slopes to where it goes vertical...like there's a good hour of pellets left in there. I've done nothing to the hopper apart from vacuuming it to get the dust out when its more or less fully empty.

 

[ericofmaine]

First question, what are your bottom 3 set at? Sounds like maybe it isn't feeding enough to keep the fire going?

As for the hopper, I've tried several different tricks: vacuuming, sanding and waxing, repainting with something high gloss, nothing has worked yet. My insert is worse than my PDV by far. I've just got into the habit of pushing the pellets into the center. I dunno...

Eric

 

[ARC]

UHMW PE tape works, I did all 4 sides of hopper and ended up having to remove some because it was sliding to good and sometimes would cause auger jams.

Long length and rough texture of pellets will cause more funneling then the slickness of your side walls.

 

[mayhem]

First question, what are your bottom 3 set at? Sounds like maybe it isn't feeding enough to keep the fire going?

I have no idea what they might be set to. I've never made any changes to them at all and it ran solid all last year and up until a few weeks ago. How do I check them and what should they be set to?

Been running it on 2 3 the last couple days without the back on it so I can observe the auger motors. Runs great, no issues. I did see it stop feeding the other night, went and looked at the back and sure enough, no error messages on the display, but the top auger motor was stopped. Checked the hopper, plenty of pellets. Here's where it gets weird...I touched the motor housing and it started feeding again. Like literally all I did was touch it, I did not hit it, tap it or spin it on the mount or anything, just a touch. Weird.

Didn't swap it out yet, its been running ok and life gets in the way, but the wife tells me its out right now (I'm in the office) and she checked the top auger motor and it is definitely not moving. She'll try it again in a bit, I'm wondering if its just old and weak and its just unable to deal with if there's a bit of a jam or if the hopper's full and there's enough downward pressure to bind the auger. I will definitely be installing the spare motor tongiht.

 

[ARC]

How do I check them and what should they be set to?

With the stove running push each button 1 time it should be 5-4-1

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/englander-25-pdvc-modes-codes.172909/

 

[mayhem]

Thanks, will check this tonight.

 

[mayhem]

So, new motor installed and running. Stove is lit but it's nowhere near as hot as it normally is. Lit it on 5 5 until convection turned on, then back to 2 3, which is where it's been for the last week.

Bottom 3 settings were 6 4 1. Changed it to 5 4 1 as suggested and it runs, but I have a small flame so I went back to 6. Is that setting essentially the drop rate? Flame is bigger now, like I'm used to...so im guessing this thing has always been running hotter than what it would normally do, which is probably why I was able to run it at 1 1 almost all the time and have a nice warm house. Current flame pic at 2 3 with bottom settings at 6 4 1, that's how it usually is at 1 or 2 temp setting.

 

[ARC]

Is that setting essentially the drop rate?

Yes for heat settings 1 and 2. They are adjustable for the lower levels as pellets, stoves and environments effect the lower heat levels more. 641 is a setting a lot of users set their stoves at.

 

[ericofmaine]

I would also suggest, if you haven't, do the burn pot modifications. Do a search on here for what it entails. Gets more heat out of the unit. I did it to my PDV and haven't regretted it.

Eric

 

[ARC]

• Jan 22, 2021

Well there are 2 modifications that have helped a lot of stoves run, burn hotter and more efficient. If you pull the burn pot plate. down near the bottom, on each side are 2 holes that when capped off (hillman electrical plugs) send more air throught the plate under the pellets instead of above them. The other is to plug some holes and drill out others. Took a few plates till i got the holes right but it works. Many pdv & pdvc users have done the conversations. A search here will show quite a few threads.





Toggle signature
Are you SURE you cleaned it good?

 

[ARC]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/troubleshooting-help-with-englander-25-pdvc.185407/

 

[mayhem]

So I left the stove on 2 3 overnight. It was unable to keep up with overnight outside temps around 20F, which is not how it has normally run. When I woke up this morning it was burning away just fine, lots more pellets in the hopper than I think there should be. I can put my hand on top of the stove and leave it there comfortably. When I left for work this morning I turned it up to 9 5 and as of right now checking my nest thermostat, its maxed out at 62 in the living room.

Wondering if my new motor isn't living up to the full 1 rpm its supposed to be at ($30 Amazon motor so maybe got what I paid for) or if perhaps my old motor has been running at more than 1 rpm all along?

Whatever is happening, the stove is unquestionably running cooler than it used to when it was on much lower heat settings. Over Christmas there was no way I could put my hand on the top of the stove, it was hot enough to burn my hand...now I can place my hand on top of it and leave my hand there. Its significantly cooler to the touch on the side where the control panel is. For clarity, that is to say, the top panel of the stove right above where the air is blown out, the right side of that panel is essentially room temperature, the left side (combustion blower side) is warm and I have warm air blowing out there, but its not what any reasonable person would call hot.

 

[ARC]

Have you checked what mode your stove is running in D is default C is hotter, A and B are for other stoves.

Could you check what mode your stove is set at: Should be D mode.

Unplug the stove
Plug power lead back in and press both the up and down blower speed buttons at the same time within 4 - 5 seconds and then release the buttons, you should now see a letter (A, b, c or d) in the left or right digital display under heat range or blower setting, you need to change this to 'd' using the up / down buttons below that readout once set to 'd' wait 10 - 15 seconds then unplug the power again and wait 5 seconds. (Sometimes the mode that you want does not set and defaults back to the mode that it was in before, repeat this step to make sure the mode that you want is set.)

 

[mayhem]

I have not checked that, but I will tonight, thanks.

I'm getting hung up on why did it work so well not too long ago though? I have a hard time with the idea that the settings like this would be the cause of the problem since I haven't changed them. Its good to do a full reset I suppose and start with a known factory kind of default, but I just feel like there has to be a different explanation. Maybe I have a chunk of creosote somewhere and its blocking some of the air flow? But then I'd expect a lazy, cool flame. Its still burning brightly, though it definitely ebbs and flows since I installed the new motor now that I think about it...sometimes its quite bright I have a very tall flame, then it gets dim and I think its going out until it drops some more pellets in there. Maybe I'll swap the auger motors tonight.

I can check on the burn pot air holes and all those other things, but I'm just getting hung up on that none of those things have changed from before when it ran great, so why has the stove's heat output changed? There has to be something causing it. Its clogged, the new auger motor is in fact bad, heat exchanger isn't working properly.

Apart from using a leaf blower, how do I properly clean this stove? I've scooped and vacuumed the burn chamber, removed the burn pot plate and vacuumed under there, removed the lift out back wall of the burn chamber and cleaned both sides of that plate and vacuumed out the hole at the top of the rear wall of the burn chamber, which I guess is the heat exchanger. I removed the convention blower, took it outside and blew it out, did the same with the combustion blower and brushed out, vacuumed the horizontal vent pipe that goes through the wall to the T outside. I also brushed out the chimney. What did I miss? There has to be something.

Maybe I had a confluence of settings and parts that has been making it run hotter than it normally would from the factory and I'm just used to that?

Looking at my nest, I see the furnace has kicked on, so the stove has probably gone out again.

 

[ARC]

Maybe it was running in C mode last year, and power outage or unplugging stove reset it back to D mode. If you check it and it is in D mode and you want it to burn hotter try C mode. If it continues to go out when running on 1 or 2 you can keep trying to increase the first number (low fuel rate) until it starts burning right. Pellet quality has a lot to do with what settings are. Green Supremes' are a mid quality pellet and can be hit and miss on how well they burn. Their pellet length can very batch to batch I currently have 2 tons of them and the pellet length this year is around 1 1/2 to 2 inches for most of the pellets which is to long for some stoves. On the flip side I have 2 tons of Maine Wood Pellets and they are all 1/4 inch which is to short for some stoves and feeds faster.

 

[ericofmaine]

Just went back through and reread this thread. I see where you took a bunch of things off and cleaned but I didn't see that you cleaned the internals of the stove and by that I mean the internal passages. In my experience, the leaf blower trick is really the only way to do this. I don't know why but Englander stoves (I have 2) really need to be clean. I hit mine with the leaf blower 2 to 3 times a year and am always amazed at how much stuff comes out.
Did you clean the room air motor before all of this as well? I know on my PDV that there is a screen over it that collects dust and pet hair and can diminish the heat output to the point the stove will get hot to the touch. That's when I usually know its time to clean it. If that's the case, perhaps you're moving air more efficiently?
One last thought with your NEST comment: Are you running this on a thermostat? If you aren't, is the jumper in place? This will never run above 1-1 without the jumper installed or a thermostat to control the board.

Eric