England 30 - Honeymoon is over :(

[taweste]

I have had the same problem with the same stove. Very frustrating. It seems like the stove takes forever to get up to temp with the door open. I extended my chimney, ensured I had dry wood, burned N/S, and i still have problems.

There is also another post on here with the exact same issues with the same stove.

 

[grommal]

I have had the same problem with the same stove. Very frustrating. It seems like the stove takes forever to get up to temp with the door open. I extended my chimney, ensured I had dry wood, burned N/S, and i still have problems.

There is also another post on here with the exact same issues with the same stove.

Well, there's dry wood, and then there's DRY wood. The newer stoves like DRY wood. We can deny it or whine about it all we want, but that's the way it is.

If it hasn't been drying split for at least one full year (two+ years for oak), if it gives a dull "thud" rather than a baseball-bat "crack" when you knock two pieces together, if it sizzles when it's burning, if you see ANY moisture bubbling from the ends or faces of the splits when they're getting hot in the stove, if ANY of these is true, then the wood is not DRY enough.

 

[taweste]

What characteristics of the "newer stoves" cause them to require "DRY" wood and not "dry" wood?

 

[pen]

What characteristics of the "newer stoves" cause them to require "DRY" wood and not "dry" wood?

Their draft comes from the fire literally pulling air into the firebox since they are so tight and the air controls are so precise in how and where they come into the stove. The old stoves didn't have a draft that was nearly as restrictive so they drew in the fresh air they needed much easier.

When wood is wet, it doesn't get as hot as quickly. You need the fire to get a large mass of heat (either lots of flames or lots of coals) for it to pull in air well.

pen

 

[pen]

Here's another way of looking at it.

Remember this demonstration from middle school?

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This is what your stove requires to draw in air. With your stove, if your fire isn't hot enough to start when you close the door (because of wet wood, poorly aligned wood, too large of wood, the voodoo curse placed on your englander stove, etc) then it would be the equivalent of the egg not being sucked in the jar because of not having a large enough flame to start with.

It is simple, either the stove and chimney and fire are all hot enough to do it, (suck in the egg) or they are not. The draft, caused by the "wish" of the hot air to rise MUST be stronger than what is required to pull that air in through the intakes.

pen

 

[grommal]

What characteristics of the "newer stoves" cause them to require "DRY" wood and not "dry" wood?

I'm not sure exactly what all the characteristics are, but these are my thoughts:

1. The primary air inlet on new stoves usually has a restricted range. On the low side, you can choke it all the way off. This is to help the user avoid smoldering. On the high side, even wide open is not up to blast furnace oxygen input. This, I imagine, is to help the user avoid really severe overfiring, and it also might contribute to hard startup issues with less-than-DRY wood. A few stoves have an auxiliary startup air inlet to compensate for this.

2. The secondary burn tube stoves do not, as a rule, have a bypass damper for direct flow up the flue (Quad Isle Royale a notable exception). So, the smoke/gases have the roundabout route to traverse past the baffle, even during startup. Combine this with the restricted range of input air in #1 above, plus less-than-DRY wood, and would make starting more difficult.

Just my $0.02. The new stoves are not worse, just different. Learn how to adapt to their needs, and they work just fine, wonderfully even. Run them like a 30+ year-old smoke dragon, and they'll just chuckle at you while you struggle to keep the fire going.

 

[gpcollen1]

So I bought an England Stove Works (Summer's Heat) NC30 from Lowes.
Built a hearth and hooked her up. 16" vertical, 24 Horozontal + the 90 degree coupling.
This thing is a PITA to get started and an even bigger PITA to keep going.
There is little to no flame, and the inside of the firebox is gloss black.
The window was cool the first day or so, but now its blackened, too.
Im lucky if I can get over 350* on the side of the firebox, its even "cooler" on the pipes.
I've used the driest wood I have (3+ years) and the chimney was squeaky clean
I dont think it should be like this. If it is, its back to the Vogelzang Death-Box that burns live trees with pleasure, and at 700*
What am I doing wrong?

It is not the STOVE'S fault. Like many other threads of why does my stove not get hot enough, this appears to be user error.

In general, you must:

1 - Light the fire up. With the Top Down method I got my large Avalon up to 450 in under 45 minutes without adding one more piece of wood this morning. I have to leave the door cracked for while with the bypass open and then close the door with the bypass remaining open.

2 - With the stove up to temp and hot coals going, fill the box with DRY wood. Leave door cracked til charred a bit, close door til going and then close bypass and let her rip.

3 - close air off as necessary to get good secondary burn.

There is plenty of good reading on Hearth for understanding on 'Seasoned Wood', Burning Techniques', top down fire starting and others...

 

[grommal]

So I bought an England Stove Works (Summer's Heat) NC30 from Lowes.
Built a hearth and hooked her up. 16" vertical, 24 Horozontal + the 90 degree coupling.
This thing is a PITA to get started and an even bigger PITA to keep going.
There is little to no flame, and the inside of the firebox is gloss black.
The window was cool the first day or so, but now its blackened, too.
Im lucky if I can get over 350* on the side of the firebox, its even "cooler" on the pipes.
I've used the driest wood I have (3+ years) and the chimney was squeaky clean
I dont think it should be like this. If it is, its back to the Vogelzang Death-Box that burns live trees with pleasure, and at 700*
What am I doing wrong?

It is not the STOVE'S fault. Like many other threads of why does my stove not get hot enough, this appears to be user error.

In general, you must:

1 - Light the fire up. With the Top Down method I got my large Avalon up to 450 in under 45 minutes without adding one more piece of wood this morning. I have to leave the door cracked for while with the bypass open and then close the door with the bypass remaining open.

2 - With the stove up to temp and hot coals going, fill the box with DRY wood. Leave door cracked til charred a bit, close door til going and then close bypass and let her rip.

3 - close air off as necessary to get good secondary burn.

There is plenty of good reading on Hearth for understanding on 'Seasoned Wood', Burning Techniques', top down fire starting and others...

+1

My Oslo works just as you describe, except if the wood is dry enough, I don't need to leave the door cracked more than a few seconds. Top down build to start, fill it atop a good bed of coals on the refills, and close it down once it's humming along and watch the light show and feel the glow! All with DRY wood. That's the way to wood-fired nirvana.

 

[Fsappo]

So I bought an England Stove Works (Summer's Heat) NC30 from Lowes.

Built a hearth and hooked her up. 16" vertical, 24 Horozontal + the 90 degree coupling.

This thing is a PITA to get started and an even bigger PITA to keep going.

There is little to no flame, and the inside of the firebox is gloss black.

The window was cool the first day or so, but now its blackened, too.

Im lucky if I can get over 350* on the side of the firebox, its even "cooler" on the pipes.

I've used the driest wood I have (3+ years) and the chimney was squeaky clean

I dont think it should be like this. If it is, its back to the Vogelzang Death-Box that burns live trees with pleasure, and at 700*

What am I doing wrong?

Listen, no one on this board loves running down non Pacific Energy stoves like me, and I was prepared to cackle and heap on the abuse when I click on this thread. But it sounds to me like operator error. Try burning dry wood.

Didnt he say 3+ year dry wood? I know in my "stove which shall remain nameless" I can burn green wood, dry wood, big chunks, little perfect kiln dried splits. It lights, in 1/2 hour from a dead start it 600 degrees surface temp and I can shut the air down to zero.

It doesnt seem like the chimney is at fault, and he claims it's clean. How much user error for an epa certified stove? I just light it and walk away.

I like the "something blocking the air hole" idea as the best bet on this one. What did the dealer say that you bought it from? Did they offer to come check it out? Possibly bring over a different stove to try? Run a draft test?

 

[stoveguy2esw]

im thinking negative pressure may be a possible, how old is the house? is it relatively tight? good windows etc...

try cracking (not opening all the way but cracking an inch or two) a window in close proximity to the stove about 5 minutes before you strike the match. see if the stove lights more readily. if it does, adding an OAK would be the solution.

as for the "blocked draft" that aint it secondary and third stage air does not come in through the primary and are not controlled by it , if the primary was blocked the dog box air would be straight blowing holes in any wood sitting in front of it with a flue that was pulling .05 overpressure or higher.

getting back to the negative pressure , think of it this way air leaving must be replaced by air coming to hold equal pressure inside the dwelling. here is my favorite analogy;

take a bottle of soda drop a straw in it and drink, easy right?

now take the same bottle of pop put a cork in the top of the bottle sealed around the same straw and try again. you would suck the straw flat trying to pull out the soda the reason for this and why its so easy without the cork is simple, the soda leaving is replaced by air coming in around the straw into the bottle

now , were you to add a second straw the soda would come out easily again because the air could get in again to replaced the displaced soda.

so , heres the analogy , the botttle is your house, the first straw is your chimney, the cork represents the relative tightness of the house, the second straw ,the OAK.

now why would this affect an airtight and not a "VZ deathbox" the VZ doesnt restrict draft as much by far (which is why it blows through wood like crap through a goose) and also why the chimney would be still able to "pull " the stove as the house isnt going to be completely tight like the bottle was.

 

[taweste]

I understand there are many variables to consider. However, I am always weary about buying the lowest priced product on the market. However, in this instance I put my uneasiness aside, mainly becuase of good reviews, and the huge differences in prices (I was able to get the NC30 from the home depot for $700 last spring, and this was nearly half price of any other stove I could find). I just find it ironic that three people on this forum have the EXACT same problem with the EXACT same stove?

 

[Fsappo]

It may not be ironic as it may be consistent. Did your dealer offer to come out and give you a hand? Does Home Depot have any kind of in home help they give folks that buy wood stoves?

 

[taweste]

I havent checked wth home depot, but I highly doubt they provide any in home help.

 

[Fsappo]

I wonder if Englander (who seems to try to be very helpful on these forums) has an on the road rep that would be able to stop by and visit with you. That would make sense to me.

 

[karri0n]

Mike,

Do the primary, secondary, and tertiary all come in through a port on the back of the stove? I would imagine, somewhere along the line, all the air needs to come in the same spot in order for an OAK to be effective at all. I don't know much about englanders, other than the fact that they have great ratings 95% of the time, unless the person is running wet wood. That being said, if it is indeed one inlet for all the air, which seems necessary for an OAK to be effective, perhaps that exterior inlet is blocked?

 

[daryl]

It may not be ironic as it may be consistent. Did your dealer offer to come out and give you a hand? Does Home Depot have any kind of in home help they give folks that buy wood stoves?

I would have too say no big box stores do not have staff trained too trouble shoot problems with the products they sell. They leave that up too the suppliers and or manufacturer of those products. The only thing they offer is discounted prices and good return policy's. So when you buy a product they sell you are left with a help line or forums like this buyer beware.
Just this morning I was on a service call for this same issue. We found that it needs a OAK and dry wood.Put the OAK in and some of our own dry wood the stove came too life and had 450 degree stove in 45 minutes.
They saved money buy buying a stove at a big box store but in the long run they put up with a stove that for two years that gave them grief. And we fixed it in 2 hours.
And next week we get to go back and fix the leaking flashing,put in a insulation shield,proper firestops and new stove pipe. In the end they would have been better off to spend 500.00 more for a stove have a pro do the work that is licensed and stands behind ther product.

 

[boostnut]

Do you have any construction lumber scraps laying around that have been stored indoors? If so, fill the firebox up about half of what you normally would, light it up and report back. This will show you whether your "seasoned" wood is truely dry or not. 3 years sounds great but how about the details. Has it been split and stacked for this full time period? In the sun or shade? Any wind thru it or was it stacked next to a privacy fence....... Lots of factors, just trying to get a feel for your fuel supply.

 

[ROBERT F]

Ive got a Lopi, and if i try to start a burn with large splits, they will burn for hours and not put out any heat. Take those same splits and halve or third them and its rip roarin in 20 mins flat. wood, loading direction, outside temps, wind, every burn is a new set of variables.

 

[dave11]

Slinger--I have the same stove, and the had the exact same problem, now solved. It was discussed here at length, including many things which in the end were clearly not the problem, like unseasoned wood, poor draft, blocked air intake. There are actually three separate posts about it, if you want to take a look.

The solution for me came when I started building bigger fires. Assuming your wood is dry, load the firebox up with wood, including smaller and medium pieces, and keep the door open a crack till it gets going, might take 20 minutes. Once about half the wood is burning, you should be able to close the door, and gradually cut back the air, and get a great secondary burn. But it doesn't happen right away.

This is my first stove, but it does seem somewhat finicky, and I wish England Stove Works would have tailored it's instruction manual that way. But once the firebox and flue are heated to about 500, it's off to the races, with no further trouble.

 

[slinger646]

Running the wood N-S helped, as did starting off with true "kindling wood" and opening the bathroom window (its in line with the rear air intake).

Also, it was easier to keep going once the whole apparatus was hot. So easy that I slept with the windows open.

My main wood pile is seasoned 1.5yr, but not seasoned enough I suppose. The old crap does a lot better than the newer stuff.

As I figured, It was a combination of ignorance to the new design of stoves and general operator error.

I think it's just going to take some practice.

Whats the best way to clean the window on this thing?

Also, what kind of temps should I expect and where should I take them?

 

[blel]

"Whats the best way to clean the window on this thing?"

As I've read here many times, use a damp rag and dip it in the ashes in stove. Works great.

 

[BrotherBart]

I have been cleaning the glass on my wood stoves, including the 30, for thirty years with dollar store glass cleaner and paper towels. A one buck sprayer of the stuff lasts at least two seasons and none of my stoves have collapsed in heap on the floor. Yet.

 

[firefighterjake]

. . .

Whats the best way to clean the window on this thing?

. . .

I'm cheap . . . and lazy. When I clean the glass once a week (sometimes more if I want a nice view of the fire or if company is coming over) I use wet newspaper . . . it removes the bulk of the fly ash and minor sooting. For any spots with heavy sooting that I might have I dip the damp newspaper in some of the ash and scour . . . use a "clean" damp newspaper to clean that up and then I often run a dry newspaper over the whole glass to finish up if the temp is cool enough.

Once in a blue moon I'll need to use a razor or Rutland glass cleaner . . . but this is pretty rare.