Emergency water repair, PEX option?

[clancey]

Waiting for my piping to start problems and that's the first thing that I am going to do as well as change my hot water heater to a forced air...clancey

 

[lml999]

After years of chasing rotten, leaky copper in my place I finally got fed up. Got out of bed one morning and stripped out the copper entirely. 8 hrs in total replaced all my lines. Done. Never had another plumbing issue. Great stuff!

We're in a 27 year old house with a handful of copper fittings that have already been replaced. My guess is that we will be looking at a repipe at some point too. Not quite sure how this gets done in a traditional two story colonial with finished basement (no easy access to pipes...)

 

[moresnow]

We're in a 27 year old house with a handful of copper fittings that have already been replaced. My guess is that we will be looking at a repipe at some point too. Not quite sure how this gets done in a traditional two story colonial with finished basement (no easy access to pipes...)

Not sure either! Fortunately in my case the lines were mostly accessable. I only had to get into one wall.

 

[bholler]

After years of chasing rotten, leaky copper in my place I finally got fed up. Got out of bed one morning and stripped out the copper entirely. 8 hrs in total replaced all my lines. Done. Never had another plumbing issue. Great stuff!

I did the same when I moved into our new house. It was early 1970s copper that had been cut into many times bad shutoffs etc. Roughly 8 hours as well. With a manifold and run for each fixture.

 

[DavidUnboxed]

We have developed a leak at 3/4" copper elbow at a hard to repair location. This is the second failure in this line. It went in new in 2003, but the plumber was sloppy and did not wipe the joints after soldering. I turned the water off on that line and am now contemplating repair options. Getting this elbow replaced will be difficult as it is very close to two other pipe and an abs drain. I'm tempted to do an epoxy bullet around it, but I know that is a bandaid.

The other option I am considering is bypassing this section of pipe with PEX. However, I have never worked with PEX before and have no tools. There would be two joints: one above the elbow and above the built-in cabinet the 3/4" line runs behind, where I can get access. This would be on a straight piece of pipe. The second joint would be in the crawlspace, on either the straight run of the pipe. For the lower joint, I could solder on a male or female 3/4" threaded fitting if that helps.

What are my options with PEX? I have no PEX tools and it doesn't make sense to do this for two fittings. Do the push fit, slip-on fittings (Sharkbiet or BlueFin) really work and hold dependably forever? Should I look for a compression fittings instead?

Also, the pex line would be run vertically up behind the cabinet and then need to do a 90º turn in the crawlspace to meet the supplying hot water line. Does one put an elbow in the pex or let it make a large sweep 90º turn to eliminate the two extra connections at a pex elbow?

I'm a DIYer, not a plummer. When my two tank system lost a tank last in Q1 of last year, I dropped in a tankless electric but found the gal/min output was terrible and didn't want to up my service panel to handle a larger unit knowing I'll eventually be replacing grid with solar. So, I opted to drop in a propane tankless. I limped along until last month on one tank but then, had enough and started my project after a lot of research. I've done a few sweat joints in houses I've owned in the past. But, this time I opted for Expansion Pex (PEX-A). I got the Dwalt tool in a kit because it was the most available at my local hardware store, a roll of PEX-A, and some fittings. I chose this over push to connect because a youtube video I saw where plumbers did a fitting pressure test of Pex-B, Pex-A (expansion pex, propex), sweat copper, and sharkbite Push-to-Connect. Under pressure, the only fitting that failed was the Push-To-Connect. The rest burst the pipe first. NOTE: Sharbite is a confusing term - in that some people mean "push to connect" when they use the term, but that company makes PEX-A products as well.

Pex-A is super easy to use. Place the PEX-A fittings first. Don't use PEX-B ones by mistake. Use A Pex-A expansion ring, insert the expander and operate the number of times required per the tool's chart. (11 times for a 3/4" pipe as my power tool manual gives) iIt takes less than a minute - then insert it into the fitting. PEX-A is flexible and can make an 8" 90 degree turn. If you kink the pipe, heat it with a low temp airgun and it will self-repair. Using the Milwaulkee or Dwalt battery powered expander - fittings can be made in very tight spaces - but elbows can be avoided altogether in most cases. When I redo my copper lines throughout the house, which I will, I'll do a brass PEX-A manifold and homeruns to avoid unecessary joints in the walls, overhead of my home, and leave a little extra coil on each run to allow for the loss of a couple of inches of pipe if I ever need to replace a fixture. Removing PEX-A from a brass fitting has been easy too. Utility knife, flat screwdriver, and a heat gun. Using the 425 degree gun from my solder kit, takes me about 2 minutes to remove a fitting. I prefer brass fittings because if I have to remove tubing they will not be damaged from a little heat.

My PEX-A connections are better than water-tight, they are gas tight. It may not meet local or national propane code, but in my mock-up test, to see if the new heater would meet my demand goal, I used it for propane both between the regulators and for the leg between stage two and the heater. Testing with soap solution gave me not even a bubble less than 10 minutes after I made the connections. When I transfer this system from my project board to my brick wall, I'll be looking for what plastic piping I can use for direct burial and the above ground portions of propane. I'm leaning towards Home-Flex Underground and Home-Flex CSST. But I also find the GasFlex aluminum core'd plastic inside and out interesting in that they claim it will work above or below ground. I would have just gone to Home-Flex for the gas during my test, but the PEX was just so much cheaper for the test.

 

[bigealta]

Was just up at my buddy's house. His pex connected to HW baseboard 3/4" copper one side and pex on other started leaking, when he touched it while building a washer platform next to it. I could see the 2 pipes (Pex and copper) were not perfectly aligned. It was his second leak with the pex that a hack plumber installed a few years ago. If it was my house and i could get to the copper fittings i would sweat on new ones or if its in the fitting i would heat the leaking fitting, take it apart, clean it very well with wire brush, clean the pipe with emery cloth, flux it , make sure it's 100% dry and no water is in the pipe and re solder it. Job done right and no future worries. Use heavy tin foil to shield other burnable surfaces nearby if needed.

 

[clancey]

Plumbing is such hard work and you really need to know what you are doing for it can mess up really bad...twenty years back I hired a plumber who came from California and he told me when he started he worked for a man that would undo all his work and have him redo it again---such training he had and the best plumber that I have ever had or ever came across---I applaud all you people who know how to do that stuff...old clancey

 

[begreen]

After years of chasing rotten, leaky copper in my place I finally got fed up. Got out of bed one morning and stripped out the copper entirely. 8 hrs in total replaced all my lines. Done. Never had another plumbing issue. Great stuff!

Is you water very acidic?

 

[begreen]

Update: Did the repairs yesterday. Getting the old copper out was a bear. There was a hidden 4" offset in the bookcase cabinet chase that would not pull out. I finally had to remove the cabinet for full access. Fortunately it was well designed for clever removal, it's just that we had forgotten how it went in after 20 yrs. The pex is now in and pressurized. Thanks for all the detailed advice. It's a leap of faith to trust those sharkbite connectors but there are no leaks. One thing I learned is a coil of PEX does not like being made to go straight. Will it relax into shape over time with hot water running in it?

 

[begreen]

Nope, it was a poor installation. With the pipes not lined up straight the fitting must not have seated properly. He just replaced it with a new shark bite fitting. Has been holding for a few hours.

LOL, I was referring to moresnow's house. I hope we stay leak free. Normally I prefer soldered copper and have done a lot of it in past years, including full hot water heating systems. But this was much more of a challenge. The lower leaking fitting probably was a bad solder job, though it took 2 decades to start leaking. It was deeply nested in wiring close by coming down from the electrical panel and two other pipes. No room for soldering in place there.

 

[begreen]

So the theory is that the lower joint failure was a bad solder job that eventually started weeping. I haven't cut open the upper 45º elbow that got the pinhole leak, but a contractor I know came up with an interesting suggestion. He used to build houses in LA for the rich and famous. These places were often sprawling mansions with long plumbing runs. In order to have on demand hot water in a far bathroom they often would have hw recirc systems. If the plumber was lazy and didn't debur the interior of the cu pipe after cutting it with a rotary wheel cutter, then the coupled fitting could get turbulence inside that wore out the inner radius. Sounds wild, but that is exactly our setup and exactly the location of the pinhole leak. It happened at the first elbow after the recirc pump cut-in. I may do some surgery and see what the inside of that elbow looks like.

 

[bigealta]

So the theory is that the lower joint failure was a bad solder job that eventually started weeping. I haven't cut open the upper 45º elbow that got the pinhole leak, but a contractor I know came up with an interesting suggestion. He used to build houses in LA for the rich and famous. These places were often sprawling mansions with long plumbing runs. In order to have on demand hot water in a far bathroom they often would have hw recirc systems. If the plumber was lazy and didn't debur the interior of the cu pipe after cutting it with a rotary wheel cutter, then the coupled fitting could get turbulence inside that wore out the inner radius. Sounds wild, but that is exactly our setup and exactly the location of the pinhole leak. I may do some surgery and see what the inside of that elbow looks like.

Well also if it was in such a tight spot, maybe plumber only got heat to 1 side. I've soldered joints that have held with just a ring of solder around the edge of fitting and not fully sucked into the joint. This can happen easily for many reasons. They obviously are subject to failure somewhere in the future. I've also seen where the solder flows almost completely in the joint but leaves a sliver of unsoldered pipe that leaks. Usually from not being clean, incomplete flux job or water drop blocking solder from running.

Pulling apart leaking fittings is the best solder lesson.

 

[moresnow]

Is you water very acidic?

We do have a high mineral content/hardness rating from the Limestone aquifers. Nitrate and bacteria from agriculture runoff is our real issue. I really should be filtering. Enjoy your steak, porkchop and chicken

 

[RustyShackleford]

Don't believe I've seen this mentioned yet, but with Sharkbite, it's extremely important to deburr the outside of the pipe cut (as well as the inside, of course). Otherwise you'll damage the rubber o-ring and have leaks. I've only got one in my system, on the main line coming from the well where I wanted no restriction - it's been in there years and doing fine.

I think the flow restriction of the PEX crimp fittings isn't really that severe. Using this wonderful calculator:

Pressure Drop Online-Calculator

www.pressure-drop.com

... I calculated the pressure loss thru a 3/4" PEX barb connector (so a sudden contraction followed by a sudden enlargement) and at 10 gal/min it comes out to 0.6 psi. Here are the calculator results:



The calculator is a bit hinky though. When you do a browser "back" command to change some of the inputs, sometimes the units (esp. on flow rate and pipe diameter) will change from what you set them to.