Water has been discovered in the ocean! Check this out:
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jebatty said:Nothing better than a dueling tempest in a teapot! Why not find the things that you can agree upon that advance a sustainable energy future and energy independence for the US, as well as a safe world for living things, and then pursue that with a joint vengeance so that both the US and the world might be better off? Certainly, all the wasted "energy" in this tempest could be put to much better use.
Dune said:Electric cars are particularly reprehensible to "conservatives" since the owners can produce their own fuel; no sale, and no taxes on the sale either.
Dune said:For this reason alone, one would think liberterians would be their biggest proponents.
Dune said:Electric vehicles have a very long track record, with reliability and low maintaince being among their highest virtues.
jdemaris said:jebatty said:Nothing better than a dueling tempest in a teapot! Why not find the things that you can agree upon that advance a sustainable energy future and energy independence for the US, as well as a safe world for living things, and then pursue that with a joint vengeance so that both the US and the world might be better off? Certainly, all the wasted "energy" in this tempest could be put to much better use.
I've been posting with easily verifed facts. Not hyperbole. Anybody that reads can pay attention, dispute, or disregard as they see fit. Digital ink is cheap, and "not reading" is easy to do.
Some of this stuff, including stats can be very misleading.
If someone wants to discuss "efficiency", first the word itself has to be clearly defined. It can mean many things.
I'm not ignorant on the subject, but I also don't know everything. There are many experts in these fields that disgree on many key points.
My take on the "subject" is this (the subject being sustainable energy to supply the present population with the present standard of living).
I do not believe it is even remotely possible with science and resources as known at present. Without some sort of huge break-through - there are few options e.g. - a much lower standard of living, much less people, etc. Fudge the numbers all you want and we are still living on borrowed time.
Now - maybe there will be a huge break-through. I still do not believe that we should squander what resources we have - while we wait for this great thing to happen. We squandered oil for years and we've squandered coal for years.
Right now - with the present state of technology and infrastructure in the USA, one dollar spent on energy efficiency will yield much more then a dollar spent on alternative energy or present resouces (more coal, oil, etc. ) And yeah, that can change and we ought to be working on both. The USA has never had a genuine long-term energy plan that made any sense. Still doesn't.
In the mean time, it might behoove a few people to . . . to do their own work on systems for their own families - and maybe not go on vacation or buy a new snow-mobile this year. If you do, don't brag about it and watch out for FEMA. As of a few years ago, FEMA is authorized to sieze privately held resources for the "greater good" during times of emergency. So, if power is gone for a month - and you've got solar or wind electric- don't leave your lights on all night and brag about it to the darkened world.
BeGreen said:Note, that the Volt is an electric drive car, it does not revert to ICE drive like the Prius when the battery is low. Instead an on board generator kicks in to provide electric motive power.
BeGreen said:I hope it's not going to take 20yrs to see some big differences in battery and infrastructure. Charging networks are already going in on Interstate 5. And there are some very interesting developments on the battery and super-capacitor front that I hope we'll be seeing within 5 years.
samdog1 said:Dune said:Electric vehicles have a very long track record, with reliability and low maintaince being among their highest virtues.
Electric drive has many benefits; it's smooth, near silent, torquey, efficient and produces no end user emissions.
All of that is presently downgraded by the inability to carry a sufficient energy supply onboard. If we could erect a big shiny electrified ceiling over the country, then we could just install contacters on poles like the arcade bumper cars have. :lol:
When the Leaf depletes its energy supply it simply stops. When the Volt depletes its primary energy supply it reverts to a moderately efficient gasoline drive (30-ish mpg). The ICE is incapable of recharging the batteries; it merely runs in a charge sustaining mode of about 30%. In either case replenishing the primary energy -- even with an optional 240V line -- requires stopping for hours (proof that the Volt really is an electric car, not a hybrid).
Conversely, it takes only minutes to refill a gas tank and that (I believe) is why hybrid vehicles are immensely more practical than electrics. With choices from the 2-seat CR-Z to the 8-seat Tahoe, hybrids are mainstream vehicles now. (So we can stop shooting each other the bird!)
I don't doubt that electric car range and charge time will improve, but there are significant battery and infrastructure challenges for at least 20 more years.
Dune said:The average driver drives just 30 miles a day.....What is suffiecient range to you?
Dune said:....range is not an issue, only cost is.
jdemaris said:Dune said:I never said anything about providing food . . . It is you who is sadly mis-informed.
. . . .If you really have the land with the wind, put up a bigger windmill and make some power. You can buy them any size you want, or, if you were a half decent mechanic, you could readily build your own.
Any one who heats with wood could generate their own electricity with a gassifier, the same way my father ran his deisel fishing boat in Norway during WWII. . . . . As to your complete ignorance regarding electric cars, . . . .
We all make decisions and form opinions on incomplete information. You are overtly guilty of that when you accuse me of being "ingorant." You know nothing about me, or what I might know. It seems that somehow, you think by calling me ignorant, it somehow enhances your arguments?
Food is directly tied to energy use in this country, so I regard it as very relevant. Shift corn production to alchohol fuel instead of food, and food prices go wacky. When petroleum gets scarce and pricey - it effects it as a motor fuel and as an agricultural necessity.
In regard to gassification? Yeah, it works for some things for some people. I've got a tractor and a 17KW genset that runs on wood-gas. NO, not everyone can do it. It takes fuel, equipment, and expertise. If tomorrow . . . everybody decided to do it - many if not most in the USA would fail to find enough to burn.
Dune said:As to your complete ignorance regarding electric cars,
For the last time, the atmospheric carbon produced by driving an electric car is aproximatly half of that of a gasoline engined car. Deisel cars are about 50% more efficeint than gas, but are far less common in passenger cars. These are facts, not opinions to debate.
If they were facts set-in-stone, there would be an inexorable consensus with the leading experts in the field, and there is not.
And by the way, the best compression-igntion engines (that you call diesels) top out as 40% efficent, whereas gas engines top out at 30%. Your figure of "diesels" being 50% more efficient then gasoline engines is not supported by any verified facts.
Depending on the level of tech, and if DI, IDI, etc. , in the real world you can expect 10%-20% better fuel mileage with a diesel car or truck over an equal powered gas vehicle. Since diesel often cost 40 cents more per gallon then gasoline in many states, there is often no monetary savings anymore.
We could also discuss "net-yields"here, in regard to commonly used fuels. That changes all the time. At this moment, coal and petro give the biggest bang for the buck. When it comes to fuels we think are sustainable? For now there are none known to exist .
I'm curiuos what your plan is - to "easily" make . . . lets say 800 KWH of electricity, per month, for each of the near 7 billion people on this earth. Same goes for making "easy" food, "easy" accessed fuel for cars and trucks, "easy" heat for homes, etc.
Dune said:. . . average diesel ( the common usage name all over the world, as well as the name of the inventer)
The Clerk engine was invented by the author with the view of obtaining impulse at every revolution...
It was not till the end of 1880 that the author succeeded in producing the Clerk engine; before that time he had several experimental engines under trial, one of which was exhibited at the Royal Agricultural Society's show at Kilburn in July 1879. This engine was identical with the Lenoir in idea, but with separate compression and a novel system of ignition.
The engine contains two cylinders, one for producing power, the other for taking in the combustible charge and transferring it to the power cylinder. At the end of the motor cylinder is left a compression space of a conical shape...
...The return stroke of the motor piston now compresses the mixed gases, and, when at the extreme end, the igniting valve fires the mixture, the piston moves forward under the pressure thereby produced
A most important development of the heavy oil engine is found in the Diesel engine, in which air alone is compressed in the engine cylinder to such a pressure as to heat it above the ignition point of heavy oil. When the air is at this high pressure and temperature the heavy oil is injected into it by air compressed to a still higher pressure. The oil spray ignites as it enters and so power is produced. Diesel began his work about 1892, and by determined perseverance he has produced a most interesting engine which is now used in considerable numbers and of high powers. Diesel's first engine was produced about the year 1895.
samdog1 said:Dune is correct about Diesel. Here is why:
The man "Clark" is actually Sir Dugald Clerk. He patented the 2-cycle, or Clerk Cycle engine in 1881. It was NOT a compression ignition engine.
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