EKO Install Complete - UPS Selection

[mikefrommaine]

I have a spring check on the main piping, not on the overheat loop. I use a taco sentry NO zone valve which does not allow any ghost flow in my no power overheat loop as it is closed during normal operation.

As far as flowing through the pump i dont think it will be a problem. Not sure though if it has an internal flow check. I have two indirect water heaters piped in series, with a circulator loop between the two. I had planned to have the pump come on when my wood boiler is at temp and off if I was burning only oil. I found that with the pump off that the two tanks maintained equal temps due to thermosiphoning between the two tanks (through the pump) as well as if the pump was on.

 

[mikefrommaine]

Here is a pic of my overheat loop return, its the 1" copper pipe.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/dscf1383-jpg.56142/

 

[hartkem]

Here is a pic of my overheat loop return, its the 1" copper pipe.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/dscf1383-jpg.56142/

Looks good,

I went and ordered three 8' sections of the fin-tube. After looking at my boiler piping again it looks like everything will work out good. I can remove my pressure/temp gauge and add a tee on the supply side so I don't have to cut any copper. Now the question is since my 10x12 boiler shack has an open insulated loft, do I need to install the fin tube all the way up to the peak or can I just install it at the top of the walls which is only about 3 or 4 feet above the boiler. I would prefer not to put it up at the peak but I will if the wall height isn't enough.

 

[steam man]

Here's what I want to know, what do those of us with boilers that require 220 volts do?

I can find 220v UPSes but they all use a single leg, not the the two 110 legs like we use here in the states.

Thanks,

K

I have to think about this but you still have 220-240V if you wire between both legs and a ground. I'd wire it up. Besides, you can use a 110V UPS and then use a 110V-220V tranformer. I've used them many times.

Also, I have used a large UPS that we wired in parallel more batteries in a separate storage compartment for longer run times. It works fine.

 

[maple1]

Looks good,

I went and ordered three 8' sections of the fin-tube. After looking at my boiler piping again it looks like everything will work out good. I can remove my pressure/temp gauge and add a tee on the supply side so I don't have to cut any copper. Now the question is since my 10x12 boiler shack has an open insulated loft, do I need to install the fin tube all the way up to the peak or can I just install it at the top of the walls which is only about 3 or 4 feet above the boiler. I would prefer not to put it up at the peak but I will if the wall height isn't enough.

I'd get it as high as possible - the higher it is, the better the flow will be through it. My old dump zone was some first floor fin-tube (quite a bit of it), so about maybe 4' above the top of the boiler. It didn't really flow the best, there were a couple of times when it was dumping and my boiler was still showing 220° and making those nerve wracking boiling noises inside. I'd then just manually open the second floor zone valves and things would cool right down.

 

[kopeck]

I have to think about this but you still have 220-240V if you wire between both legs and a ground. I'd wire it up. Besides, you can use a 110V UPS and then use a 110V-220V tranformer. I've used them many times.

Also, I have used a large UPS that we wired in parallel more batteries in a separate storage compartment for longer run times. It works fine.

I was thinking about it too, and I think it would work just fine if I used a 220 volt UPS, the only thing I would have to do is have the neutral wire(s) tied together out side of the UPS. That is, the two hot legs (black and red) go into the UPS then come out and go into the boiler, the neutral wire just bypassed the UPS and are tied in together.

The circulator I'm 99% sure is 110v but the controls that run is are 220v. Those crazy Europeans.

Really, the biggest reason I would like battery backup isn't over heating when the power goes out, I built an array that can take care of that, it's the fact that when the power comes back on you have to manually hit the reset switch to get the Tarm going again. I had it smolder for the better part of a day once, it ended up making a bit of a mess.

K

 

[Trex83]

We are using a Compaq UPS 1500VA that outputs 120VAC. We changed the batteries that were dead in the UPS, bought two deep cycle batteries to replace the old ones. We just wired the batteries out of the UPS casing. We have close to 6 hours run time on them, never drained them yet to the ground (120 Ah on C20). We just had to pay for the batteries and the crimps...
The pump and control on the Biomass 60 runs on 120VAC.
Cheers,
Trex83

 

[dogwood]

Trex83, what is the voltage on the deep cell cycle batteries you used? I was wondering if the UPS stepped up 12v batteries to 120VAC.

 

[kopeck]

Trex83, what is the voltage on the deep cell cycle batteries you used? I was wondering if the UPS stepped up 12v batteries to 120VAC.

Most UPSs use 6 or 12 volt batteries, most of the time in series (eg 4 6v = 24v). Once you figure out what the operating voltage is for your UPS you could match it using plain old 6 or 12 volt deep cycles.

The only issue I could see is if you use a tiny UPS that not rated for the amperage your boiler would be pulling but that's just a doing your homework type thing.

K

 

[JP11]

Most UPSs use 6 or 12 volt batteries, most of the time in series (eg 4 6v = 24v). Once you figure out what the operating voltage is for your UPS you could match it using plain old 6 or 12 volt deep cycles.

The only issue I could see is if you use a tiny UPS that not rated for the amperage your boiler would be pulling but that's just a doing your homework type thing.

K

I have a smaller UPS that I'm replacing with one from my wife's machine. So I have an unused 600watt one. Should I plug the boiler into it?

Now.. before you say.. You're a moron.. that will run it for seconds... THAT'S all i NEED. I have a auto generator, and power only goes out for 7 or 8 seconds. My circulator is about 1.76 amps or roughly 300watts or so. Boiler max watts says 140.

JP

 

[kopeck]

Sure. Take the model number and look up the specs, it will give you run time.

I would check to see how many watts your setup consumes though, to little juice is worse then to much.

K

 

[Trex83]

Trex83, what is the voltage on the deep cell cycle batteries you used? I was wondering if the UPS stepped up 12v batteries to 120VAC.

The old batteries were 12V 17Ah in series. The UPS needs 24V and is rated for 1500VA (960W power), but as someone said today, every model can have a different battery configuration. Some even have an external battery bank adaptor in addition to the batteries in the UPS.
For the power consumption we used a Kill-A-Watt meter to measure how much power the system draws out and I remember it was more than enough for a medium load of wood when starting the boiler on coals from a previous batch.
Cheers,
Trex83

 

[dogwood]

Thanks kopeck and trex83. Trex, If I understand what you're saying, you now have two 12v deep cycle marine batteries wired in series, and your UPS puts out 120v. I'll try and do the same except I'll probably need a transformer in addition to step up the voltage to 230v like steam man suggests, as that's what my Termovar Loading Unit calls for.

There are a lot of UPS's on ebay that come without batteries you could add the marine deep cycle batteries too . Initial costs are a lot lower and shipping costs would be a lot less without that added weight. Maybe I can get lucky and find one that puts out 230v.

Kopeck, any chance you could post a wiring diagram of your explanation above of how you'd wire up a 220 UPS to take care of the extra leg problem. I'm having a little difficulty picturing your explanation. Thanks. I am attempting to try and not burn up my Loading Unit, whose wiring diagrams are in Danish by the way. But that's another post.

Mike

 

[kopeck]

OK, here's the deal. You only need neutral (the white wire) if you are using 110 volts. That is if you took your volt meter and tested white to either of you hot legs (red or black) you would get 110v. Now when you deal with 220v you don't need neutral, that is take the same meter and touch red and black and you will read 220v. The easiest way to think of it is 110v is relative to ground/neutral where as 240v is the two hot legs voltage relative of each other.

The rub for me is the way my boiler is setup there are some 110v stuff that goes along with the 220v stuff, so I need neutral. So something like this should work:

Sorry if this is crude, It was quick but I think it gets my point across.

All this being said, I'm not an electrician but I like to play one on the weekends. I don't see why this setup wouldn't work, I'm still going to run it past an electrician friend to make sure!

This is of course using a 220 UPS...

K

 

[dogwood]

Thanks kopeck. I'll look around ebay for a 220 UPS that's reasonable. I'm not getting why the Grundfos 3-speed pump on my Termovar Loading Unit would be using 230v instead of 110, but maybe that's how they do it in Europe.

Mike

 

[maple1]

When I was ordering my loading unit, I think I had a choice between 110 & 220.

I think.

 

[Trex83]

The old batteries were 12V 17Ah in series. The UPS needs 24V and is rated for 1500VA (960W power), but as someone said today, every model can have a different battery configuration. Some even have an external battery bank adaptor in addition to the batteries in the UPS.
For the power consumption we used a Kill-A-Watt meter to measure how much power the system draws out and I remember it was more than enough for a medium load of wood when starting the boiler on coals from a previous batch.
Cheers,
Trex83

Picture

 

[thecontrolguy]

I'm using a APC UPS and I believe the model is a 1500 "Smart UPS". It has (2) 12V batteries in it. I've never run the batteries down to see how long I can really get out of it but I'm 100% confident I could get 3 hours min. This would be more than enough time to finish off a load or at least shut things down safely.

You could replace the SLA (or VRLA) type batteries inside the UPS with larger batteries, of the exact same type and get extended run time. The only caveat I've found is that the UPS has a limited recharge rate and so the recovery to full charge after a power-out event is longer than with the original batteries. Also, be careful with the external wiring; put a suitable fuse as close to the new batteries as possible to protect the wiring from the first time you drop a wrench or something on them (don't ask).

 

[SmokeEater]

My Eko 40 and 500 gallons of pressuirized storage is completed and works as intended. I have been waiting for some lower temps to do a test run and last night it got into the 40s so I decided to go ahead and see if all my work for the last 6 months paid off. The Eko fired up and entered gasification mode without problems. Storage got up to 160 from 65 degrees. Im happy with the results. Now I need to change gears and think about how I am going to protect the boiler in a power failure. My boiler is in an outbuilding. I would need to power the EKO controller and Taco 011 pump long enough to prevent the boiler from overheating. I want to use a pure sine wave UPS to do this. Can I buy one off the shelf to provide enough battery life or will I need to add external batteries? Can you add extra batteries to any UPS easily? I don't know much about UPSs so I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

Yes, you can hook up any number of batteries as long as they are connected in parallel and are of the same voltage. Note that as you add batteries in parallel, you decrease the lines resistance and more current will or can flow in that portion. Parallel connections keep the voltage constant but add storage to your system. Connect, with proper size conductor for the load, positive of one to positive of the second and so on. Same with the negative side.

 

[VTHeatGeek]

Little late on the reply but I just finished installing my Battery backup solution for my Biomass 60. I have used a Xantrex 600 watt pure sine wave inverter, Xantrex Inline Transfer relay that automatically switches over to the inverter when power goes out. I used an Exide AGM type battery for the source power. I keep a trickle charger on this continuously. This setup runs boiler, circulators, and zone valves. I have gone through 2 APC UPS units since I originally kept them in the outbuilding with the boiler but have found they have an operating temp or 105 degrees and my building can get over that especially in warmer weather. I now keep this setup in the basement of the house.

 

[dogwood]

VTHeatGeek , why did you choose an AGM type battery? Never heard of them before. Apparently there are quite a few type batteries. There are some deep cycle batteries they use on fork lifts that are supposed to have a long life and good surge capacity. Probably pricey too. I suppose I'll have to figure how much power the Grudfos circ needs to startup before making a selection. And what trickle charger are you using?

Mike

 

[VTHeatGeek]

I used an AGM type which is a deep cycle battery also but does not put off hydrogen gases when charging and since this is in my house basement I want to keep it safe. I got an Exide RF-31E Roadforce AGM-200 from Amazon. The price was about the same as a regular deep cycle also. I have a Grundfos Alpha as my load circ and regular Grundfos on the Boiler and startup is minimal. I use the Battery Tender trickle charge, probably one of the best brands. Here is a good little link on battery info.

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html

 

[dogwood]

Thanks for the info on batteries VTHeatGeek. I had no idea batteries put out hydrogen gases. Our batteries and inverter, or UPS, will be right next to our boiler. Sounds like it might even be dangerous; possibly another Hindenburg disaster in the making. Nothing I feel like experimenting with anyway. Good thinking about the AGM. Sounds like a good way to go. Do you know if they can be found locally or are they a special order item? One other thing, any idea how long your Exide TF-31E could power your set-up.

Good link too. Thanks again.

Mike

 

[VTHeatGeek]

If you go with a regular UPS like an APC the batteries in them are sealed AGM type but those units only have an operating temp of about 105 degrees so keep that in mind. You should be able to find AGM batteries at any local auto store though they may be a special order and they will probably charge you a core charge unless you have an old battery to take back. Best price I have found was on Amazon and I was able to get free shipping. They currently are offering a $20 mail in rebate. I haven't done a full test on run time which I need to do but I am expecting to get 4 - 8 hours of run depending on where I am in the burn cycle, if my storage is hot and no fire in boiler it should last much much longer. My biggest concern is getting through a full burn cycle so it doesn't overheat. If I need more run time I can add another battery in parallel. Also these AGM batteries should last 5 - 10 years if maintained on a trickle charger so your spreading the cost out over time.

 

[dogwood]

Following up on your hydrogen gas info, I found there are ready made vented boxes (battery containers) that you can duct to the outside. They will also protect your battery from accidentally dropping something on them too, or having exposed leads. I looked around ebay for inverters that will put out 230v. and operate off 12v batteries. Seemed to be quite a few coming out of China, which made me a little leery. I need to find out what manufacturers of inverters are reputable. Maybe Xantrex makes a 230 model. If you think you can get 4-8 hours of run time off just one battery that's excellent, and way more than the UPS's I checked out put out. I Iike your setup, VTHeatGeek, and that is what I am going to put in, with the addition of the vented box. Thanks for the advice.

Mike