Eco vs econoburn

[Piker]

The Econoburn has been tested extensively for heating efficiency and particulate emissions by Intertek.

I am not well versed in the science of draft, but I do know there are benefits and drawbacks to both draft induction and forced draft. There are various reasons why one method is chosen over the other in specific applications. For instance, forced draft lends itself to being used without thermal storage... and since thermal storage is probably going to take some time to catch on here in the states, it's more marketable at this point.

I do like the idea of not having smoke puff out of the loading door on a draft induced boiler... but this is easy enough to deal with on the forced draft gasser models that it doesn't seem to keep people from buying them.

cheers

 

[cvanhat]

The biggest differance for me (and the determining factor) was the fact that the eko line units all have larger fire boxes which will mean longer burn times. i have a eko 60 that will take 30 inch pieces. i load this up at 6 at night and its still going at 5 am. your life style and how often you wanna fill it should be considered.

 

[Piker]

Just to throw out some numbers... Not all the comparable sized EKO boilers have larger fireboxes than the Econoburn.

The EKO 60 is comparable in size to the Econoburn EBW200. Wood box volume on the EKO is 10.9 Cu ft. according to their literature. Wood box volume on the Econoburn is 8.05.

The EKO 40 is comparable in size to the Econoburn EBW150. Wood box volume on the EKO is 6.5 cu. ft. according to their literature. Wood box volume on the Econoburn is 6.2.

The EKO 25 is comparable in size to the Econoburn EBW100. Wood box volume on the EKO is 4.14 cu. ft according to their literature. Wood box volume on the Econoburn is 5.44.

Your burn times will be affected by more than just wood box size, although that is definitely one factor.
cheers

 

[georgeinct]

I just purchased an EKO Super 80, not had it installed yet, was just delivered, I have a 5000 s.f. with 4 zones that are seldom, if ever, on at the same time, I was told the house has a heat loss of 185-190k, the EKO 80 is rated for 275k btu, I have these questions if anyone has any suggestions, comments, ideas would be much obliged and greatly appreciated, am eager to learn, I am a contractor and get loads of wood for free and will finally have a very effective use for it, selling it is simply not profitable even at today's prices.

1) How large of a storage tank is optimal? what is the best type of tank and where do I get one?

2) I will install it in my basement, will it heat the basement from simple passive heat that comes off of it or do I need to throw a radiator into the basement loop?

3) Should it be installed independently or connected to existing natural gas boiler? What are the pros and cons? I have a high efficiency condensating natural gas boiler, the kind that hangs on the wall.

4) I intend to also install either a new on demand water heater like Rinnai or Bosch, or an indirect type, does anyone have any advice about which type would be better, on-demand or indirect?

5) I saw one of the forums where an EKO 40 or 60 owner had said that his EKO makes a lot of creosote and he actually had a chimney fire, I was surprised by that, thought that was the whole point of gasification, clean and efficient, does anyone know anything about that? Of course, I know dry wood is essential. I am also concerned about air quality as we all should be and want the thing to burn as clean as possible, and that is why I purchased a gassifier.

Any insight, experience, know-how, and/or wisdom is appreciated, thanks.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

Hello George, some quick thoughts:

1) If you are looking for a DIY solution then I would look to a 1000 gallon propane tank. Even at that you may need to adjust to smaller fuel loads in the Spring and Fall. If you are looking for a turn-key system, we offer an 820 gallon system based on a collapsible tank (un-pressurized) or 880 gallons of pressurized storage. See our web site for details or give a call.

2) If you want the basement to be 'room temperature', you will probably need to add some radiation. If not, then maybe the heat loss off of un-insulated pipes connecting boilers and storage will be enough.

3) Plumb the system as one integrated system. That way the fossil fuel boiler will kick in automatically when the wood boiler and storage have gone cold.

4)Go with an indirect. It will be set up as a heating zone and as such is easily heated by any of your three heat sources (gas boiler, wood boiler, heat storage).

5) I am not familiar with the EKO or the report of creosote in his chimney, but I agree that something does not sound right there. My guess is operator error (bypass damper left open, wet wood, or?).

a quick question, is that EKO 80 UL listed?

good luck with the install, sounds like you are on the right track.

Chris

 

[shoeboxlen]

I have a eko 25 that we purchased late summer 2008 and it has the cleaning handle so I am gusing it has the turbolators as well as all the ekos at the time of my purchase were super models. I have mine in the basement and I can honestly say I love not having to drag myself outside to load the stove. Since I run without storage I load a little more frequently than folks with storage. Aside from the leaky door seal smell which is taken care of with the new gasket I have been extremely happy with the boiler. just my .02

 

[Hydronics]

Chris,
None of the eko's are UL Listed, the PAXO's may be as they are intended for the US market. Are Tarm's UL Listed?

 

[georgeinct]

Chris, thanks for the info.

I guess I agree with you about the indirect water heater, I was thinking of the on-demand because I am away a lot and also in the summer, I would think it would be more efficient than maintaining tank temperature all the time.

As for the size of the storage tank, I know GARN is highy regarded and mostly because it has large water storage. There smallest unit I believe is 1500 gallons and I do have a somewhat large house, 5000 s.f. even though seldom are all zones on.
All this being said, should I go larger than 1000? I have room for 1500 or even two 1000 gal. tanks. I definitely favor pressurized, less maintenance and more efficient. So is bigger better?

Also, a chimney question if anyone knows the answer, I have an idea but am not sure. My chimney is lined has a flue size of 7"x11", I guess it is possible to install a stainless steel liner, but is it necessary. worth the added cost?

Thanks for you help

 

[georgeinct]

Also, about tying the 2 boilers together allows for automatic kick in of the fossil fuel, but isn't a loss of efficiency? The gas boiler becomes simply a conduit for heat loss because it will rarely be needed and the hot water of the other system has to pass through it if I understand correctly, no?

Why can't the gas boiler be independent and still kick in if set off by some thermostat control? I will use it mostly when away. I am novice at this so please bear with me.

thanks again, george

 

[Chris S]

Pipe your boilers in Parallel rather than in series to avoid standby losses as you describe.
For a person who's away a lot, a tankless is a perfect application. You only have to be comfortable with paying for that heat. I use Takagi & am happy with them

 

[julien]

Chris,
None of the eko's are UL Listed, the PAXO's may be as they are intended for the US market. Are Tarm's UL Listed?

Tarm and Froling are UL and CSA approved.


Orlan Eko from New Horizon corp have a label UL and CSA


Cosy Heat said Bio-Mass are UL and CSA approved.



Other wood boiler are UL approved ?

 

[pybyr]

Chris,
None of the eko's are UL Listed, the PAXO's may be as they are intended for the US market. Are Tarm's UL Listed?

Tarm and Froling are UL and CSA approved.


Orlan Eko from New Horizon corp have a label UL and CSA


Cosy Heat said Bio-Mass are UL and CSA approved.



Other wood boiler are UL approved ?

The Econoburns meet both UL and CSA
(broken link removed to http://www.alternativeenergyfoundation.org/releases/2009/econoburn-boilers-awarded-canadian-safety-certification/)

Regarding creosote in the flue- someone would really have to try hard to get that with any decent downdraft gasifier.

The Garn is an excellently simple integration of an efficient wood unit and storage all in one, with little need for complex controls; they each have their aptitudes for specific applications and owner preferences.

 

[Gooserider]

Combining a couple posts...

Chris, thanks for the info.

I guess I agree with you about the indirect water heater, I was thinking of the on-demand because I am away a lot and also in the summer, I would think it would be more efficient than maintaining tank temperature all the time.

Another option might be to throw a couple solar HW panels up on your roof and do solar DHW in the summer. Or some folks have said that if they super insulate their indirect and throw an electric element in it, then the cost isn't that bad to use electric just in the summer time.

As for the size of the storage tank, I know GARN is highy regarded and mostly because it has large water storage. There smallest unit I believe is 1500 gallons and I do have a somewhat large house, 5000 s.f. even though seldom are all zones on.
All this being said, should I go larger than 1000? I have room for 1500 or even two 1000 gal. tanks. I definitely favor pressurized, less maintenance and more efficient. So is bigger better?

Bigger is possibly better if you want to be able to run longer between fires. The downside of bigger is that it will take longer to heat. Given that you have a larger size boiler, it probably wouldn't be bad to go for a larger tank... The other thing to keep in mind is that ALL tanks will lose some heat over time, so you are really better to keep your BTU's as fuel rather than hot water, so going to much oversized is probably not good either.... Maybe take a look at Garn's website and see what size they reccomend for your house, and match the tank size... The other dumb question is do you have basement access to get the tanks in and out? Propane tanks are big and heavy, and they don't flex in the middle...

Also, a chimney question if anyone knows the answer, I have an idea but am not sure. My chimney is lined has a flue size of 7"x11", I guess it is possible to install a stainless steel liner, but is it necessary. worth the added cost?

Not sure what the rules are on forced draft units, on a natural draft wood stove you aren't supposed to be more than 3x the flue outlet on an inside chimney or 2x on an outside chimney, and should ideally be the same. I think the Eko 80 uses an 8" outlet, which is ~48 sq in. Your flue would be 77 sq in, which is well within the limits, but not optimal. Assuming the flue is in good shape, I would say that the liner would be nice, but not essential.

TAlso, about tying the 2 boilers together allows for automatic kick in of the fossil fuel, but isn’t a loss of efficiency? The gas boiler becomes simply a conduit for heat loss because it will rarely be needed and the hot water of the other system has to pass through it if I understand correctly, no?

Why can’t the gas boiler be independent and still kick in if set off by some thermostat control? I will use it mostly when away. I am novice at this so please bear with me.

thanks again, georgehanks for you help

There is no reason the gas boiler can't be done as an independent system, but that would mean having to duplicate your entire heat distribution setup, with two sets of piping, radiation sources, etc. which is more than a bit of a waste. If you plumb the boilers in parallel then you get to re-use all the existing house plumbing with both units... If you do the search, you can find many sample layouts of how to do this, and links to manufacturer websites with even more ideas... Basically though each boiler usually has it's own pump and ties into the main loop seperately. If you use storage you want to set things up so the dino-boiler bypasses it, as you DON'T want to heat the storage with your gas boiler....

You end up with three heat sources - If the wood boiler is hot, heat from that, and if the boiler is putting out more than the current demand charge the storage. When the boiler goes out, run off the storage tank. If the storage tank isn't hot enough, fire up the gas boiler...

Hope this helps,
Gooserider