E Classic 2400 Probs

[atvalaska]

eric....u forgot burning the "retreads" that come off 18 wheeler tires ...some fine "heat " in those ...

 

[Eric Johnson]

Easy for me to say, I agree. My thinking is simply that anything that failed that soon and was apparently pretty shoddily constructed, is probably not going to hold up well over time. Obviously, you've had a much better look at it than me. Being a gasifier guy myself, I guess I'd shoot for something along those lines. I will be replacing my mom's Brute Force OWB next summer with an EKO like mine. We're going to build a cinder block boiler room for it in the wood shed. Buying the Brute Force when her old Heatmor failed last winter seemed to make sense, but it's not working out for her--too much smoke; too much wood. So, I think next summer will be a good time to unload it. We should only "lose" $2,000 on the boiler, but she got two heating seasons out of it, so I think it's closer to a wash.

Good luck in whatever you do. I don't doubt your ability to adapt.

 

[heaterman]

From what I have seen of these and a few other brands, it's more the design than the steel or the thickness of it. What's going on in that area is erosion of the metal caused by flame impingement. It would be similar to running a cutting torch on the metal and that problem is "baked in" to the design. (pun intended)

 

[The Weimar]

Heaterman, I semi-agree with you. Flame impingement, or the touching of the flame to the heat transfer surface, in this case, the firebox, happens. I also agree with your example of the cutting torch on the metal. Here is where I disagree: The thickness of the material has a great deal to do with the heat transfer. To use the cutting torch example, if you hold the torch close to a piece of 1/4" flat plate, it will take x amount of time to get to the Draper Point (when it starts to turn red). 1/8'' flat plate will take y amount of time (much less) and therefore will start to break down at a much higher rate. Now, my seasoned oak and hickory doesn't get nearly as hot as my acetylene torch does, and with the water jacket behind the steel helping to 'cool' it, the steel used in any wood burning furnace should not corrode away in one year, unless it is very thin and of poor quality material. 1/8" steel plate in ANY furnace is unacceptable, period. Having said that, poor customer service is just as unacceptable, if not worse, whether it is with a wood furnace manufacturer, at a car dealership or at the hot dog stand.

So, whether it is round, square or whatever shape the engineer 'designs' it to be, if he uses crap to build it, the design will be crap, kinda like what your quote says..

The Weimar

 

[heaterman]

In your case the metal thickness will give you a somewhat longer time before failure for the simple reason that there is more material to wear through.
Regardless of whether the metal is thick or thin though, both of them are water backed so it isn't the same as a torch actually cutting the steel. You would never be able to get either of them red hot to where the steel would melt. (try to get a water filled copper pipe hot enough to melt solder at 400*)
What you have going on there is flame caused erosion the same as if you were sanding or grinding the surface.

 

[The Weimar]

Again, heaterman, I do not disagree with you when you say that I have 'something going on'. I am not educated on erosion of steel by flame. One of steels great properties is that even under a high heat load it maintains 95% of its structural integrity. Steel doesn't begin to fail until it reaches 565* celsius, and I would think that my furnace doesn't get near that temperature, especially with the water jacket helping to keep it cool. Is there some evidence, research papers, etc. on the internet that speak to "erosion by flame"? I would be very interested in reading these. By the way, if you want to get that water filled copper pipe hot, use that acetylene torch, it will melt that copper, water filled or not.
Again, I appreciate all of the comments and interest in this problem, and I hope it never happens to any of you.

 

[Clarkbug]

Thanks for posting your fix Weimar. Strange things are afoot in that spot, odd that it was so thin. Hope you got it up and running ahead of this cold snap!

 

[Fred61]

Erosion by flame is real. The extreme heat oxidizes the surface and the oxidation falls away. Ever see a blacksmith remove iron from the coals and strike it with a hammer? Those sparks that fly off are surface oxidation.

 

[The Weimar]

It is running, Clarkbug, and as cold as it is here I bet its colder where you are. -8 this morning at 'El Rancho Relaxo". Seems to be running well, as I had the previous year to dial it in and get the wood seasoned. When I loaded her up this morn the temp gauge was at 1.48, I'm pretty sure that translates to 'HOT'and No smoke out the pipe, except for the heat loss hitting the arctic air. Even the weimars' find it too cold to hunt, they don't have to much hair on em ya know. But they do like climbing on the woodpile.
I will continue to update on any for issues, whether it is with the furnace or the customer service dept @ CB. They have not responded to my email as of yet, but its only been THREE days. Long way to MN from MA.

The Weimar

 

[The Weimar]

Hi Fred,
when the blacksmith takes that steel out of the coals it is usually glowing red and yellow, yes? That redness starts around 550 C or 1000 F. With water behind it, the steel should not get that hot. And to my point, if the material is thick enough to withstand the direct heat, then the transfer of the heat energy to the water is done efficiently without the steel burning up. That is why it takes that blacksmith so much longer to heat up the thick stuff that they use in well built wood furnaces...and not the 1/8" recycled Hyundai's I have in the front of my firebox.

 

[Fred61]

Unit heat at the surface.

 

[maple1]

I think I would put some fire brick in front of your new steel spots - maybe just one brick in each spot would do it? Part of this heat erosion/impingement thing I think is not so much just the heat but the force of it - air movement with it - and the stuff that brings with it like ash & coal bits. That part is just a hunch, but there are lots of pics & threads on here about nozzle wear/abrasion, and I kind of think the same thing might be going on at those spots in your firebox. For some strange reason related to airflows in there. A firebrick should be some cheap & easy protection.

All very interesting regardless and appreciate the updates.

 

[mr.fixit]

Some types of wood are corrosive if not seasoned long enough,most notably oak.
Burn a lot of oak?

 

[The Weimar]

I burn oak, maple, hickory and just about everything else that I can get my hands on. No pine, unless it is old, like 3-5 years minimum. I have burned a very minimal amount of unseasoned wood in there and wouldn't any corrosive wood not be smart enough to only attack a 2" x 24' spot in the front of the firebox? The rest of this thing is in 'as new' condition.. All good comments and ideas here....especially the fire brick along the front of the box.. There are some fire resistant coatings on the market that I am going to do some research on, ceramic based coatings that are applied with a plasma, sounds cool but probably costs an arm and a leg....

The Weimar

 

[heaterman]

Bear in mind that a gasification fed flame can reach 1,700-1,800*F on a routine basis.
Also realize that fluid flow on the water side of areas reaching those kinds of temps becomes critical.
I would bet that part of the equation is not even on the radar of many OWB manufacturers because they have never had to deal with it.

http://www.nationalboard.org/index.aspx?pageID=164&ID=186

 

[Fred61]

It's like that was written with this thread in mind

 

[The Weimar]

That is a good report, Heaterman, thanks for sharing that. I think that the last three paragraphs relate directly to the problems I have experienced. I would like to say that it does call out temperatures and wall thickness, but does not clearly state how wall thicknesses designed to withstand and transfer that type of heat can protect the system from failure more efficiently than thin wall steel. But, having said that, BINGO, hit it right on the ol' head.
Nicely done.....

 

[maple1]

That was interesting.

So from that, I would also suspect there might also be poor water flow in pockets of the water jacket right behind these problem spots.

I would still lean to a couple of firebricks in front of those spots - although they might possibly deflect things to other spots. But should scrub some of the bad effect off in doing so. Cheap & easy at least.

 

[mr.fixit]

Not to familiar with the inner design of the E2400,but does it have 2 chambers,an upper loading chamber and a lower gasification chamber?
If so,where was the leak?

 

[The Weimar]

Check out the previous posts Mr Fixit, like page 1........everything should be pretty clear, and if isn't I will do my best to 'fixit'...

 

[mr.fixit]

I did look at the pictures,the thing is they are all close ups so someone unfamiliar with that particular boiler can't really tell what part of the boiler it is.

Don't bother trying to make it any clearer for my sake.

 

[The Weimar]

Ok, good point...The affected area is directly under the door, on the front wall. One suspicious, 2" x 24" 'filler' that was definitely of a different composition and thickness than the rest of the furnace.
What do you think?

 

[dlabrie]

Did you ever get satisfaction from CB?

 

[The Weimar]

Hello Mr Labrie, the only satisfaction that I have gotten was that after I had the firebox repaired, I was able to light the lamp and burn for the rest of the season. It has developed another leak, this time in the top right corner of the firebox, which I will be repairing in September. CB, theire customer service, and their warranty, are not good.

 

[Clarkbug]

Sorry to hear that Weimar. Is that an area with an odd fill of metal also?