dumb question on Romex

[Ashful]

The GFCI trip limit is a fixed value, just a few milliamperes, and not proportional to load or device rating. So one issue seen by folks who had the GFCI breakers that used to be more popular before GFCI receptacles, or with poorly-implemented circuits (too many appliances on one GFCI controller), is random trips. I used to have this problem at my own house, with many Christmas light strings on one circuit, even in dry weather.

Then there are also issues with poorly insulated old power tools and things like antique vent fans, designed in the pre-GFCI era. The easy solution is to replace them, but some folks want to resist.

A thoughtfully-laid out GFCI system, using master and slave outlets in adjacent or nearby pairs can work very well, and should not cause any issues.

Unfortunately, I haven’t read NEC with respect to vent fans. If mine were tripping a GFCI breaker, and it were an older unit, my first step would be to replace it with something modern. If that did not resolve the issue, I would be looking to either run a dedicated circuit to the fan, or at the code compliance options for running it off an immediately-upstream GFCI receptacle. Due to the fixed limit I mention at the top of this post, the more wiring and devices you have on a single GFCI controller (i.e. breaker or receptacle), the more likely you are to see undesired trips.

 

[MTY]

Please quote the code

 

[RustyShackleford]

Actually, what it is, NEC does not seem to explicitly require GFCI-protection for lights/fans in a shower or over a tub. But it does require a unit listed for "wet" locations. And in all of such units I've seen, the instructions do explicitly state that it's rated for "wet" only if also GFCI-protected.

 

[MTY]

Correct, wet is generally considered within reach of water. If you cannot reach water from the fan, it is not required. I have done them both ways. The last house I wired I left it off the GCFI and it passed. This was about a year ago.

What happens is that on a cold winter day the fan is at a lower temp than the air from a steamy shower. Dew point in the fan box is low enough to cause condensation inside the motor, the can etc. The can is grounded so the GCFI trips.

Another offbeat example of the wet definition. I wired a house about 10 years ago. (This one has the fart fan on the GCFI and it trips when the daughter takes a winter time shower with the steam so thick you need a machete to navigate in the house.) I put an outlet on a GCFI in a mud room between the kitchen and the garage. No water in sight. The inspector called me on it. I showed him the concealed drain cleanout a few feet from the outlet and asked him which outlet a plumber would be plugging his electric snake into. He agreed to this outlet needing to be on a GCFI.

I will be wiring the new place this fall or winter. The fart fan will not go on a GFCI.

Unless you wish to build in problems, do not put the fart fan over the tub or shower if you do not live in a warm climate.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Unless you wish to build in problems, do not put the fart fan over the tub or shower if you do not live in a warm climate.

Not a conventional bathroom - just a collection of stuff, in a more or less linear arrangement, at one end of the MBR. There's a vanity counter with two sinks, about 7ft long. At one end of this is a toilet room, tiny 3x5ft with a door and its own fan. At the other end is the walk-in shower.

Wife demands I put a fan to ventilate the shower, and it's her that cleans it (mildew). It'll be off a GFCI outlet that is RIGHT next to the walk-in shower's doorway, so easy enough to reset. And if it becomes too big a problem, it'll be easy to simply switch it from the load side to the line side of that GFCI outlet.

 

[Ashful]

fart fan.

Great post, but the Like is actually just for the use of this term.

 

[MTY]

It's nice to know I am contributing to the expansion of your lexicon.

 

[Dobish]

having had over 15 junction boxes buried in the walls, and finding multiple instances of wires cut off, folded and taped off stuck behind walls, I would highly encourage making it easily accessible if at all possible. If it is in the attic/crawlspace, and you have a room to put a box there, why not just put an outlet on it and then you have somewhere to plug a work light into, or something else?

I would highly discourage leaving wires in the wall... i am almost at the point of tearing out all of the drywall in my basement so I can just rewire and re-insulate the place....

 

[begreen]

Dobish, that sounds like a nightmare and quite illegal. Splices need to happen in junction boxes and they need to be exposed, never buried in a wall or ceiling.

 

[Dobish]

Dobish, that sounds like a nightmare and quite illegal. Splices need to happen in junction boxes and they need to be exposed, never buried in a wall or ceiling.

as with most things in my house, i am pretty sure that they were literally cobbled together by leftover scraps from the construction site... at one point i found 4 junction boxes buried within 3 feet of each other. Here are a few examples of some things I found while doing the work

Buried in the hallway ceiling:


In the living room ceiling, a roll of wire taped off, the other end going to a junction box, which had another wire that was taped off...



the state of the electrical panel:


And to top it off, the electrician I originally had working on my house while doing the reno did this: (*note, this is a 200 amp pass through)

 

[Ashful]

Holy crap... how do you sleep at night?

 

[Dobish]

Holy crap... how do you sleep at night?

I didn't for about 6 straight months as I tore everything out and re-did it.

I only have one circuit that has a few ungrounded outlets and possible hidden junction boxes that hasn't been replaced. I have run a new line to a junction box and now that the garage is done I can tear everything out of that room and get it right.