Door glass - Is it mandatory?

[ambull01]

Well I think you said you're a blond..that should help..maybe better to shave your head?

Nah, I'm not blonde just act like a stereotypical one at times. I have black hair. Half Asian man in a west-east land.

 

[HotCoals]

And why not just transfer as much heat as fast as you can to the interior of your house,why store it in the medium that is the stove?

Oh it may get to hot in the room..then turn the air down..even better yet.

 

[bholler]

Why do you think by storing the heat in the stove you are loosing more up the flue? A higher thermal mass stove wont loose any more heat up the flue than a comparable steel stove not sure why you think it would?

 

[HotCoals]

Heat transfer happens faster when the temp differential is the greatest.

 

[HotCoals]

Why do you think by storing the heat in the stove you are loosing more up the flue? A higher thermal mass stove wont loose any more heat up the flue than a comparable steel stove not sure why you think it would?

Think of the fire box as being insulated the thicker it is,more insulated..where is the heat going to go when it the transfer rate is slow? I would think up the flue.

 

[bholler]

Think of the fire box as being insulated..where is the heat going to go when it the transfer rate is slow? I would think up the flue.

Yes but it is not insulated unless it has pumic brick in it then yes it is but that is done to direct the heat to where the manufacturers want it to go.

 

[ambull01]

Heat transfer happens faster when the temp differential is the greatest.

Now I see what you're saying, I think. You want to get the heat out as fast as possible to lessen heat loss up the flue. Maybe maybe not. Can heat transfer be explained by people using floor fans to push cold air into the stove room vs trying to push hot air out? You two are in another wood burning league than I.

 

[bholler]

Well i have to go hook up some double wall pipe for a customer around the corner. I am not trying to fight with you at all i just dont think your reasoning is correct. But i could be convinced otherwise i by no means have all the answers.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Ok, here is my experiences with the glass door, upon reaching the coaling stage, when I open the glass door for a 5-10 minute time, I can raise the room temperature up significantly, especially with higher btu wood like red oak, I have been thinking lately that the glass door actually inhibits the transferring of the heat to the room, I'm usually always using my blowers thinking that is what is transferring the heat, not the glass.....

 

[pen]

Ok, here is my experiences with the glass door, upon reaching the coaling stage, when I open the glass door for a 5-10 minute time, I can raise the room temperature up significantly, especially with higher btu wood like red oak, I have been thinking lately that the glass door actually inhibits the transferring of the heat to the room, I'm usually always using my blowers thinking that is what is transferring the heat, not the glass.....

If that were true, you'd be better off installing a traditional fireplace.

While you may feel the direct radiant heat of the coals with the stove door wide open, what you don't see is the huge volume of warmed air from elsewhere in the home that is getting sucked up the flue.

It's better to keep the door closed, despite what it may feel like with it open.

 

[HotCoals]

Ok, here is my experiences with the glass door, upon reaching the coaling stage, when I open the glass door for a 5-10 minute time, I can raise the room temperature up significantly, especially with higher btu wood like red oak, I have been thinking lately that the glass door actually inhibits the transferring of the heat to the room, I'm usually always using my blowers thinking that is what is transferring the heat, not the glass.....

When the stove is burning good put your hand in fron of the glass then the steel right next to it..which place made your hand hotter.

This really is not rocket science.

bholler,

Lets go to a extreme.

A wood stove with 1ft thick steel surfaces would lose more heat to the flue then the same exact stove with 1/4 steel inch surfaces..it would have to right?.

 

[ambull01]

Think of the fire box as being insulated the thicker it is,more insulated..where is the heat going to go when it the transfer rate is slow? I would think up the flue.

Okay, finally figured out you're an engineer or something. I'm hoping you can explain one thing to me. I looked up thermal mass because I majored in accounting. So, according to what I read, the properties required for good thermal mass are:
High specific heat capacity and high density

I clicked on heat capacity and read it is the ratio of the amount of heat energy transferred to an object and resulting increase in temperature. So soapstone sounds like it has a low heat capacity but does it make up for that with high density? Is radiant heat really inversely proportional to emissivity? I don't see anything that says that. Also why use soapstone at all if it's not inversely proportional to emissivity when steel will heat up faster!? This is so confusing.

 

[ambull01]

If that were true, you'd be better off installing a traditional fireplace.

While you may feel the direct radiant heat of the coals with the stove door wide open, what you don't see is the huge volume of warmed air from elsewhere in the home that is getting sucked up the flue.

It's better to keep the door closed, despite what it may feel like with it open.

Isn't that just because you would have to open up the damper when you're using a traditional fireplace? HotCoals method of burning your house down would solve that I think with having no chimney for heat to escape.

 

[HotCoals]

Okay, finally figured out you're an engineer or something. I'm hoping you can explain one thing to me. I looked up thermal mass because I majored in accounting. So, according to what I read, the properties required for good thermal mass are:
High specific heat capacity and high density

I clicked on heat capacity and read it is the ration of the amount of heat energy transferred to an object and resulting increase in temperature. So soapstone sounds like it has a low heat capacity but does it make up for that with high density? Is radiant heat really inversely proportional to emissivity? I don't see anything that says that. Also why use soapstone at all if it's not inversely proportional to emissivity when steel will heat up faster!? This is so confusing.

It's all about marketing my friend and to what pleases some eyes..they are pretty.


Don't worry about all the fancy terms..just think it about it reasonably.

The one thing you kinda need to know is that heat transfer happens the fastest when the temp diff is the greatest between objects.
Fans blowing on a stove can cool the medium..so when that happens the medium can gather more heat faster to transfer to the room..simple right? Also the fans did not change the fire in the stove any...at least not in a measurable way.

 

[ambull01]

It's all about marketing my friend and to what pleases some eyes..they are pretty.


Don't worry about all the fancy terms..just think it about it reasonably.

The one thing you kinda need to know is that heat transfer happens the fastest when the temp diff is the greatest.
Fans blowing on a stove can cool the medium..so when that happens the medium can gather more heat faster to transfer to the room..simple right? Also the fans did not change the fire in the stove any...at least not in a measurable way.

Oh yeah that makes sense. So the insert fan is to cool the stove, check. I guess the reason for the insert fan is due to the fact they are restricted in which way they can vent heat (from the front). Thought the fans pushed out heat but that doesn't sound like the case. Free standing stoves wouldn't need this function as much because they freely radiate heat from all sides so there's less chance of over heating your stove. Am I right or totally off base?

 

[HotCoals]

Oh yeah that makes sense. So the insert fan is to cool the stove, check. I guess the reason for the insert fan is due to the fact they are restricted in which way they can vent heat (from the front). Thought the fans pushed out heat but that doesn't sound like the case. Free standing stoves wouldn't need this function as much because they freely radiate heat from all sides so there's less chance of over heating your stove. Am I right or totally off base?

You're right. That said heat does get trapped in the back of a insert also so the fans help get that heat out into the room plus the fans do cool the steel so the steel can absorb more heat faster..

 

[bholler]

A wood stove with 1ft thick steel surfaces would lose more heat to the flue then the same exact stove with 1/4 steel inch surfaces..it would have to right?.

No it wouldnt it would loose exactly the same amount why would it change it would take allot longer for you to feel the heat but it would be going into heating that mass of steel not going up the flue

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

If that were true, you'd be better off installing a traditional fireplace.

While you may feel the direct radiant heat of the coals with the stove door wide open, what you don't see is the huge volume of warmed air from elsewhere in the home that is getting sucked up the flue.

It's better to keep the door closed, despite what it may feel like with it open.

The area intended for the insert is closed off, so no warm air is being sent up the flue but the heating area raises significantly with the door open, and I'm not talking about just in front of the insert I'm talking the entire area.
I'm not sure what you mean by the i would be better off it a fireplace comment when I was trying to make a point that during the coaling stage, the glass door keeps some of the heat in from heating the room...

HC
My particular insert has a 100percent glass front surface so I wasn't really commenting on glass vs steel, more so glass door open vs glass door closed, and i wouldn't want to be a rocket scientist anyways, they can barely get one off the ground...

 

[TheRambler]

Emissivity is inversely proportional to heat density. Think of emissivity as the rate at which a given material will pass/give of/ radiate heat. So a soapstone stove can store the most heat but releases it at a slow rate. Glass stores minimal heat but releases it almost instantly. Steel stores a good amount of heat but releases it at a rather fast rate also, but nowhere near as fast as glass obviously.

 

[bholler]

The area intended for the insert is closed off, so no warm air is being sent up the flue

So what is carrying the fumes from the coals up the flue if you open the door there will be allot of air going up the chimney and it is coming from the house so it is heated air

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Sure I guess it is heated air going up but the fact is that the room being heated by the insert gets the hottest when the door is open with the bed of coals. The house us not cooling down due to this action.

 

[ambull01]

Emissivity is inversely proportional to heat density. Think of emissivity as the rate at which a given material will pass/give of/ radiate heat. So a soapstone stove can store the most heat but releases it at a slow rate. Glass stores minimal heat but releases it almost instantly. Steel stores a good amount of heat but releases it at a rather fast rate also, but nowhere near as fast as glass obviously.

Man this stuff is interesting. I'm going to read up on this subject.

So if it is inversely proportional, why not use silver/polished copper/aluminum foil (using the emissivity ratings on Wikipedia lol)? I can see cost of said material as one downside but what about putting them in high dollar inserts? If mass has to be factored in then take out the aluminum foil. Wouldn't the two remaining materials be a better option vs soapstone?

 

[HotCoals]

No it wouldnt it would loose exactly the same amount why would it change it would take allot longer for you to feel the heat but it would be going into heating that mass of steel not going up the flue

It will be higher temp in the stove with foot thick walls therefore the stack temp will be higher because you insulated the stove from the area you want to heat.
In other words you slowed the transfer of heat into the room but you spead up the transfer rate to the outdoors through the flue.
We can agree yo disagree though.Cheers!

 

[HotCoals]

The house us not cooling down due to this action.

Yes it is. You're getting heat directly from coals that are really hot but the room temp will drop soon.
That's why fire places are so inefficient but yet feel great standing in front of them. That is true radiant heat.

 

[TheRambler]

Man this stuff is interesting. I'm going to read up on this subject.

So if it is inversely proportional, why not use silver/polished copper/aluminum foil (using the emissivity ratings on Wikipedia lol)? I can see cost of said material as one downside but what about putting them in high dollar inserts? If mass has to be factored in then take out the aluminum foil. Wouldn't the two remaining materials be a better option vs soapstone?

While a material may look good on paper, not all materials are created equally. Steel, cast iron, and soapstone are used because of their ability to withstand the very high temperatures of an intense fire. Where as alluminum, silver etc are not quite as robust. I would have to read up on silver and other metals in regards to this, but i doubt few could afford a stove made out of silver!

Here is a chart i foubd with a wuick search
http://www.onlinemetals.com/meltpt.cfm