DOLMAR 5100

[Bigg_Redd]

<snip>
Air cooled 2 strokes (like in chainsaws) are the least picky of all 2 strokes in terms of premix oil. Outboard motors and liquid cooled 2 stroke motorcycles run with about half of the internal tolerances that air cooled engines do and the oil requirements are more stringent. I don't use TCW-III oil in my saw but I have and would again without a second thought.

The argument against using TCW-III is that the operating temperature ranges are different, and the oil for the liquid cooled engines can't take the heat of the air cooled units - also worth noting that while a liquid cooled engine has tighter tolerances on the bench, the air-cooled engine will have more dimensional changes as the parts heat up, and both end up about the same tolerances at operating temperatures. Problem is the AC engine gets a lot more abuse, and is closer to the edge of catastrophic failure... One of the big reasons LC engines are popular with engineers is that they are far easier to design for both durability and performance in the same unit.

What I think is a telling indicator is that you don't see many oils that have both ratings - if they were interchangeable I'd expect that you would as it would presumably be worth doing it for the oil companies.

Gooserider

I think the reason you don't see many with both ratings is that API ratings are VERY expensive. I'd bet my next 6 paychecks that any TC-WIII would rate better in any lab test for viscosity and film strength than anything that said "Stihl" or "Echo" or whatever on the bottle.

 

[Gooserider]

According to the manual, Dolmar requires oil that meets at least JASO FC or ISO EGD standards.

Per Wikipedia, JASO = Japanese Automotive Standards Organization

JASO FC is a performance quality classification for two stroke engine oil, for engines of Japanese origin.
Oils are granted the JASO FC certification by the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization, under the test sequence M345. JASO FC is the highest rating for 2-stroke oils. JASO FC oils leave little deposits and create very little smoke. They also pass lubricant and detergent tests. A JASO FC oil will have a rectangular seal. In the upper quarter of the rectangle will be a serial number and the lower three quarters will just have the letters M.
Again, there is an official JASO seal if the oil has been independently tested. The seal is a rectangle; in the upper quarter of the rectangle will be a serial number, and the lower three quarters will just have the letters MA. JASO FC -has now been superseded as the highest rating by JASO FD.
JASO FA – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
JASO FB – increased lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FA.
JASO FC – lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FB.
JASO FD - same as FC with far higher detergency requirement.

I wasn't able to find anything real authoritative on ISO EGD, but did find this quote on a forum

ISO EGD is the “European” specification that slightly exceeds the “Japanese” JASO-FC. There is a new JASO-FD spec, as the ISO and JASO testing sequences have come closer together with the latest ‘’FD'’ and ‘’EGD'’ designations. Previously, the only difference was a 1 hour and 3 hour detergency - lubricity - ring groove - sticking test with JASO-FC and ISO-EGD respectively. Now, they are the same set of tests.

Some of the other stuff I found seemed to say that JASO FD is an improvement over FC, and is the approximate equivalent of ISO EGD, and that there were a FEW Dino oils that could meet FC, but that to pass the FD or EGD specs you needed a synthetic base.

I also found this page from AMSOIL on their different two-stroke oils - with ratings and application reccomendations... They have a chart with different applications - it says the TCW-III oils are reccomended for boats, and are OK for bikes, but are NOT reccomended for chainsaws and other OPE uses...

My feeling on Bigg_Redd's statement

I think the reason you don’t see many with both ratings is that API ratings are VERY expensive. I’d bet my next 6 paychecks that any TC-WIII would rate better in any lab test for viscosity and film strength than anything that said “Stihl” or “Echo” or whatever on the bottle.

is that he is probably right that getting ratings is expensive, it should be less expensive to run one oil through the tests rather than having to make multiple formulations to get tested seperately - each rating has several parts, and in many cases the results from one part can be used in other ratings, for a lower total cost... Judging from that Amsoil page, they seem to find it necessary to make multiple formulas for different applications.... I'm not saying that TCW-III is bad oil, just that it's not the right oil for a chainsaw, and IMHO it's worth the money / hassles to use the right oil...

Gooserider

 

[downeast]

[quote author="Gooserider" date="1229260311
Dolmar specs 91 octane minimum, and says not to burn alcohol blends. Gooserider[/quote]

The Dolmar spec is the German ROZ ( and Euro) fuel rating. 91 ROZ is the equivalent of U.S. 86 octane...the "regular" at the pump is 86-87 octane.
We use the mid-grade 89 octane ( ~ 95 ROZ ) year-round in all saws. Works fine.
Save the 91 octane gas for your Aston Martin.

 

[Brian VT]

Welp, I use Amsoil Dominator at 50:1 so I guess I'm okay. The chart says Saber 100:1 is best for chainsaws. My racing buddy, who owns a motorcycle shop, has been running Saber 100:1 in his bike for 2+ years with good results. I still cain't bring myself to run it. He says the other Amsoils can be run at 100:1 but if they print it on the label noone will buy it 'cuz they're like me, old school. My race buddy is 10 yrs. older so I have no excuse for my stubbornness.
If you ever come back mr2, sorry for the hijack.

 

[Gooserider]

[quote author="Gooserider" date="1229260311
Dolmar specs 91 octane minimum, and says not to burn alcohol blends. Gooserider

The Dolmar spec is the German ROZ ( and Euro) fuel rating. 91 ROZ is the equivalent of U.S. 86 octane...the "regular" at the pump is 86-87 octane.
We use the mid-grade 89 octane ( ~ 95 ROZ ) year-round in all saws. Works fine.
[/quote]

Per the Dolmar manual -

Fuel mixture
The engine of the chain saw is a high-efficiency two-stroke
engine. It runs on a mixture of gasoline and two-stroke engine
oil.
The engine is designed for unleaded regular gasoline with a
min. octane value of 91 ROZ. In case no such fuel is available,
you can use fuel with a higher octane value. This will not affect
the engine.
In order to obtain an optimum engine output and to protect
your health and the environment use unleaded fuel only.
Gasoline which contens alcohol should not used in
DOLMAR products.

There is endless debate on oils over on Arboristsite - very little on gas, and most of the gas debate has been on whether high test is OK, or if you are better off getting AVGAS at the local airport... I see very few suggesting use of regular gas w/ alcohol in it... The reason given is less to do with octane than it is to avoid the alcohol, which is seen as a major problem. Another reason given is that high test takes a bit longer to degrade, which makes a big difference for those of us that don't go through mix as fast as we might like.

Gooserider

 

[mr2autoxr]

I'm still here, just reading along and gathering this information. Tonight I'm stopping at the store to get some gas and oil. I'll try to fire the saw up soon and I do have a tach now so I can see what the saw is doing. I'll keep everyone posted as what I find out

 

[downeast]

The Dolmar spec is the German ROZ ( and Euro) fuel rating. 91 ROZ is the equivalent of U.S. 86 octane...the “regular” at the pump is 86-87 octane.
We use the mid-grade 89 octane ( ~ 95 ROZ ) year-round in all saws. Works fine.

Worth a repeat: "ROZ" is a Euro rating usually ~ 4-5 points HIGHER than U'S. octane numbers. The Dolmar fuel rating is at the German "ROZ".

 

[mr2autoxr]

Now I've come across another question...

I have the optical tach that needs the reflective tape stuck on to get a reading....where does everyone stick the tape on a chainsaw?

Thanks

 

[Bigg_Redd]

[quote author="Gooserider" date="1229260311
Dolmar specs 91 octane minimum, and says not to burn alcohol blends. Gooserider

The Dolmar spec is the German ROZ ( and Euro) fuel rating. 91 ROZ is the equivalent of U.S. 86 octane...the "regular" at the pump is 86-87 octane.
We use the mid-grade 89 octane ( ~ 95 ROZ ) year-round in all saws. Works fine.

Per the Dolmar manual -

Fuel mixture
The engine of the chain saw is a high-efficiency two-stroke
engine. It runs on a mixture of gasoline and two-stroke engine
oil.
The engine is designed for unleaded regular gasoline with a
min. octane value of 91 ROZ. In case no such fuel is available,
you can use fuel with a higher octane value. This will not affect
the engine.
In order to obtain an optimum engine output and to protect
your health and the environment use unleaded fuel only.
Gasoline which contens alcohol should not used in
DOLMAR products.

There is endless debate on oils over on Arboristsite - very little on gas, and most of the gas debate has been on whether high test is OK, or if you are better off getting AVGAS at the local airport... I see very few suggesting use of regular gas w/ alcohol in it... The reason given is less to do with octane than it is to avoid the alcohol, which is seen as a major problem. Another reason given is that high test takes a bit longer to degrade, which makes a big difference for those of us that don't go through mix as fast as we might like.

Gooserider[/quote]

I don't know about pump premium, but AvGas degrades, very, very slowly. And AvGas stored on a sealed metal can has an indefinite shelf life, and it WILL NOT gum your carb regardless of how long it's left.

 

[downeast]

All our saws have enjoyed 89 octane ( mid-grade ) gas for years without complaint. Use Stabil if the fuel is not used for a month or two, but not much longer. Aviation fuel is expensive and overkill for small 2-cycle engines. Great for your Ferrari or twin engine Bonanza however.
I never used an optical tach.....interesting.

 

[Gooserider]

Now I've come across another question...

I have the optical tach that needs the reflective tape stuck on to get a reading....where does everyone stick the tape on a chainsaw?

Thanks

Interesting question, I'm not really sure about the answer - most of us use inductive tachs that read the magnetic field off the ignition system, so it's not a problem. You can't really go on the chain side of the engine as that will be covered by the chain cover (and you definitely need to have the bar and chain installed when setting the RPM...)

The recoil side is mostly covered by the saw case, but there may be some slots or ventilation holes you could shoot the tach through and hit a length of tape on the flywheel. (I suspect you might have to do some disassembly to get the tape on) - I think the solution is going to be very dependent on the saw, not to mention exactly what your tach requires. It may not even be possible, in which case you would need to get an inductive tach.

Gooserider

 

[Bigg_Redd]

All our saws have enjoyed 89 octane ( mid-grade ) gas for years without complaint. Use Stabil if the fuel is not used for a month or two, but not much longer. Aviation fuel is expensive and overkill for small 2-cycle engines. Great for your Ferrari or twin engine Bonanza however.
I never used an optical tach.....interesting.

I use it in my dirtbikes, so I use it in everything else too. It's only about $.40 per gallon more expensive than pump premium.

 

[downeast]

I use it in my dirtbikes, so I use it in everything else too. It's only about $.40 per gallon more expensive than pump premium.

The old 2-cycle Bultacos and a Suzuki we had worked fine on regular 87 gas. Besides, the nearest full service airport is Bar Harbor, in Trenton, Maine, an hour away. With all the Homeland Security BS I don't know if non-aviation vehicles could get fuel.
Besides, isn't aviation fuel more like refined kerosene rather than gasoline ?

 

[carbon neutral]

With all the Homeland Security BS I don't know if non-aviation vehicles could get fuel. I doubt there would be a problem at a small airport like Bar Harbor. I keep my plane at a small airport and I have never been stopped when going out to my plane even when I drive my truck out to the plane. Anybody interested in buying av fuel should just talk to the lineman and ask how it should be done. Most people at airports are very helpful.

Besides, isn't aviation fuel more like refined kerosene rather than gasoline ? No, most small air planes powered by recipricating engines run on 100 low lead. Jet fuel is similiar to kerosene.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I use it in my dirtbikes, so I use it in everything else too. It's only about $.40 per gallon more expensive than pump premium.

The old 2-cycle Bultacos and a Suzuki we had worked fine on regular 87 gas. Besides, the nearest full service airport is Bar Harbor, in Trenton, Maine, an hour away. With all the Homeland Security BS I don't know if non-aviation vehicles could get fuel.
Besides, isn't aviation fuel more like refined kerosene rather than gasoline ?

First of all, set aside your binary, on/off outlook. I've run my saws and my bikes on pump gas many times and had no problems with it, and if it was a major PITA to get AvGas I wouldn't bother. I'm not saying pump gas is horrible and that AvGas is the savior of mankind, but I am saying it's better, and I'm saying it's well worth the extra $.40-$.50 extra I pay. And it's better because it lasts forever, it makes starting easier, it runs cooler (high octane and no ethanol), and it gives much better throttle response (not that big of a deal for a firewood saw). If I had to drive an hour for it I wouldn't bother, but I bet it's a lot closer than you think.

I've never heard of DHLS taking any interest whatsoever in the sale and distribution of AvGas. As a flammable it is no different than pump gas. There's no road tax levied on it so it's illegal to burn in on-road licensed vehicles.

And no, it is not kerosene. Jet fuel is basically kerosene. 100LL AvGas is 100 octane leaded gasoline.

 

[mr2autoxr]

I started my saw last night for the first time and it fired right up really easily. The limiter straps are still in place as I didn't remove those. I kept the H setting just a slight bit off the full rich side and the L setting about the same. The idle S set very easily as well and I have no chain creep. I let it warm up and played around with it for a good half hour and it runs great.

It revs very nice and I attempted to use two different tachs. The first was the optical tach I mentioned earlier and I couldn't find a good spot to mount the tape and be able to use the tach easily. After further thought last night, just below the sproket (maybe on the clutch) it looks like I could have a piece of tape mounted there, but I'd need someone else to hold the tach while I ran the saw (safety 1st).

Therefore I didn't get far with the optical tach so I tried a clamp that went on the spark plug wire and ran to a FLUKE meter. I had the meter set on HZ and figured I would have to divide the reading of HZ by 60 to get RPM of the engine. Well at idle my FLUKE was reading near 300 HZ. This didn't divide out properly to a correct RPM number so I'm not quite sure why that didn't work. The only reason I can think of right now is that the clamp on the wire was very large and it was difficult to get around the wire and was touching the cylinder head.

I might attempt to try the optical tach again tonight and I'll let you know if it works.

 

[downeast]

With all the Homeland Security BS I don't know if non-aviation vehicles could get fuel. I doubt there would be a problem at a small airport like Bar Harbor. I keep my plane at a small airport and I have never been stopped when going out to my plane even when I drive my truck out to the plane. Anybody interested in buying av fuel should just talk to the lineman and ask how it should be done. Most people at airports are very helpful.

Besides, isn't aviation fuel more like refined kerosene rather than gasoline ? No, most small air planes powered by recipricating engines run on 100 low lead. Jet fuel is similiar to kerosene.

Woops, another binary error: I was thinking of jet turbines and then high octane aviation fuel. Forgive.

Check your charts and airport listings: Bar Harbor Airport is small but one of the many DHS 'secure', 24/7 IFR, fully staffed airports. There is NO civilian access except for aircraft owners....not for chainsaw geeks. This is not an 18 dirt runway.

 

[carbon neutral]

With all the Homeland Security BS I don't know if non-aviation vehicles could get fuel. I doubt there would be a problem at a small airport like Bar Harbor. I keep my plane at a small airport and I have never been stopped when going out to my plane even when I drive my truck out to the plane. Anybody interested in buying av fuel should just talk to the lineman and ask how it should be done. Most people at airports are very helpful.

Besides, isn't aviation fuel more like refined kerosene rather than gasoline ? No, most small air planes powered by recipricating engines run on 100 low lead. Jet fuel is similiar to kerosene.

Woops, another binary error: I was thinking of jet turbines and then high octane aviation fuel. Forgive.

Check your charts and airport listings: Bar Harbor Airport is small but one of the many DHS 'secure', 24/7 IFR, fully staffed airports. There is NO civilian access except for aircraft owners....not for chainsaw geeks. This is not an 18 dirt runway.

Here is the information on Bar Harbor airport. http://www.airnav.com/airport/BHB
It is not attended 24/7 and does allow public access. If someone wanted to buy avgas there I would recommend contacting the FBO and asking about the proceedure for doing so. Like I said from my experience as a pilot most fbo's and line workers are happy to help people out.

 

[downeast]

[quote author="clarkharms" date="1229455885 Here is the information on Bar Harbor airport. http://www.airnav.com/airport/BHB
It is not attended 24/7 and does allow public access. If someone wanted to buy avgas there I would recommend contacting the FBO and asking about the proceedure for doing so. Like I said from my experience as a pilot most fbo's and line workers are happy to help people out.[/quote]

As was posted before: " I don want no stinkin' AV fuel." Read: the saws run fine on mid-range fuel.

Another non-binary binary error caught again. Wow ! You were asked to "check YOUR charts and listings", not a search.
You people Google well. So, we once again are humbled. Oh the binary of it all.

Oh yes, access to BHB IS restricted....on the ground, in this real world. I guess I cannot play in the sandbox.

 

[carbon neutral]

[quote author="clarkharms" date="1229455885 Here is the information on Bar Harbor airport. http://www.airnav.com/airport/BHB
It is not attended 24/7 and does allow public access. If someone wanted to buy avgas there I would recommend contacting the FBO and asking about the proceedure for doing so. Like I said from my experience as a pilot most fbo's and line workers are happy to help people out.

As was posted before: " I don want no stinkin' AV fuel." Read: the saws run fine on mid-range fuel."
Sorry I didn't mean to upset you. I was just trying to show that avgas is available to most people should they choose to try it after reading the posts on this thread.

Another non-binary binary error caught again. Wow ! You were asked to "check YOUR charts and listings", not a search.
You people Google well. So, we once again are humbled. Oh the binary of it all. "
I did check my flight guide which has more information on an airport than a chart does, my charts are currently in my airplane so I couldn't reference them. I supplied the airnav link because it is a way anyone with a computer can check for information on their local airport and get the fbo's contact information. My charts would simply show that bar harbor is uncontrolled air space, the length of the longest runway, if it were lighted and that the airfield is unattended at night. The FBO's contact information is what is critical for somone looking for fuel.

"Oh yes, access to BHB IS restricted....on the ground, in this real world."
Really, it wasn't last summer when I drove there?!? All airports are restricted to a limited degree. Like I said if someone wants to pursue buying avgas call the fbo. Obviously you don't, fine. Personally I don't either but if someone wants to try avgas why throw up hurdles that don't exist?

 

[Bigg_Redd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Maine

 

[carbon neutral]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Maine

I really hope you didn't google that! :ahhh:

 

[downeast]

"Oh yes, access to BHB IS restricted....on the ground, in this real world." Really, it wasn't last summer when I drove there?!? All airports are restricted to a limited degree. Like I said if someone wants to pursue buying avgas call the fbo. Obviously you don't, fine. Personally I don't either but if someone wants to try avgas why throw up hurdles that don't exist?

This airport is commercial, it is not a private 18 grass strip. There are locked gates, video monitors, Homeland Security passenger checks, random police patrols 24/7, HS walkabouts during flight hours. Your vehicle will ( not cannot ) not have access to the fuel or runways. Unless you decided to crash the fences. ( They do that in CT ? )You need a serious ID for your aircraft access. Now of course this is what it is on the ground; your non-binary ( whatever ) virtual reality may vary.

Welcome to Downeast however. Nice place huh ? Enjoy.
Binary out.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

"Oh yes, access to BHB IS restricted....on the ground, in this real world." Really, it wasn't last summer when I drove there?!? All airports are restricted to a limited degree. Like I said if someone wants to pursue buying avgas call the fbo. Obviously you don't, fine. Personally I don't either but if someone wants to try avgas why throw up hurdles that don't exist?

This airport is commercial, it is not a private 18 grass strip. There are locked gates, video monitors, Homeland Security passenger checks, random police patrols 24/7, HS walkabouts during flight hours. Your vehicle will ( not cannot ) not have access to the fuel or runways. Unless you decided to crash the fences. ( They do that in CT ? )You need a serious ID for your aircraft access. Now of course this is what it is on the ground; your non-binary ( whatever ) virtual reality may vary.

Welcome to Downeast however. Nice place huh ? Enjoy.
Binary out.

Just for the record, I'm the one calling your worldview binary.

Binary.

 

[sl7vk]

Here's how it works. You take a gallon of gas, you know the stuff that comes out of a pump in your neighborhood. You take a little tiny bottle of that Husky XP low smoke synthetic. You mix it all together.

Put into saw without spilling.

Start saw.

Use saw.

Repeat.





Easy peasy....