DIY PTO Log Splitter thoughts

[CombatChris]

So I've wondered about electric splitters before, and after a lot of conversation on this board and thinking about it more and more, I've decided it's not worth it.

My wife and I are looking at getting a homesteam/small farm, and will be growing our own food, and maybe some more, in at least 1 acre of fields. That means a tractor will be available, and not some lawn tractor. Being on a budget, I'm thinking something along the very vague lines of an older Ford 3000 (or something equivalent).

Now, this tractor will have between 35 and 40 HP at the PTO. I'm looking at all the available things which it's going to be used for. Bushhog and finishing mowers, of course. Pulling a plow/disk/rototiller, obviously. But also to serve as a generator, and as a log splitter.

A splitter with a pump such as this - http://www.surpluscenter.com/Brands...RINCE-HC-PTO-1A-PTO-PUMP-540-RPM-9-1047-1.axd - 21gpm @ 2000 PSI (32hp to make that happen!)

That means a 6" diameter, 24" long piston with a capacity of 2.94 gallons would be fully extended in 8.4s with the force of 28 tons. If I can find a pump with a higher pressure that would be even better.

That's impressive enough, yes? Something like that would be able to handle a 6 way wedge don't you think? This, for now, is all a thought experiment.

 

[SIERRADMAX]

What size trees are you intending on splitting for the requirement of a 6 way wedge? I would be more concerned about the structure of the splitter (assuming fabricated) and something with a 6-way wedge would require some serious amount of steel resulting in not "being on a budget". Are you looking into a tractor with a loader? If so, a stand-alone splitter is better as you can use the loader to bring the rounds to work-height and is a back-saver.

 

[CombatChris]

I would be sourcing from scrap, I guess - an I or H beam for the frame. I would be looking at building a hydraulic lift also for the big stuff. I would be ideally handling anything between 10" and 30". The splitting post would be removable so that a simple blade/wedge could be used in place of the 6-way.

 

[Krogoski]

If you are looking for a tractor anyway, get one with remote Hydraulics.
We have a three point hydraulic splitter, bought from Northern Tools for around $400. That was 8 years ago now, but they can't have gone up much.
We have a John Deere 2150 and Foton FT254, both with remotes.
Beware of John Deere hydraulic systems though. Depending on the year/model they have Closed Center hydraulic systems.

 

[CombatChris]

The tractor itself is more likely going to be on a budget of $5k, hence the older Ford 3000 (or comparable). But I've also read that the tractor's own hydraulics, unless you go with something really large, is going to be much smaller than the 21gpm the PTO will be driving.

 

[Krogoski]

I don't know what tractor prices are like in NC. Just throwing the option out there. The JD is right around 13GPM and the Foton is closer to 25gpm. I bought the Foton for $1000 and the JD for $5000. Now I wouldn't wish a Chinese tractor on anyone, but I like the little bugger.

Yes, a Ford 3000 would be painful with remotes @ 5 GPM, Agree with you there!

 

[Jags]

Something like that would be able to handle a 6 way wedge don't you think?

Gonna be on the edge with that unless you are working up easy stuff. Now - if you said 3000 PSI it would be a whole 'nuther animal.

 

[CombatChris]

Gonna be on the edge with that unless you are working up easy stuff. Now - if you said 3000 PSI it would be a whole 'nuther animal.

Thanks. I certainly hope I can find another pump capable of handling that. Would bring the tonnage up to ~42. The numbers for the cycle though - with a 24" stroke and this being a single stage, I would think is quite fast. Most splitters with 2 stage pumps, they use the fast-stage for their cycle time numbers, right?

 

[Jags]

Most splitters with 2 stage pumps, they use the fast-stage for their cycle time numbers, right?

Yes they do. 21 GPM on a 6" ram is not gonna be speedy. It will do OK, but you are not gonna stand there going "whoa - thats fast".

 

[CombatChris]

I looked at the 40gpm, but at 2k PSI it wants ~59hp, and I am NOT going to be getting tractor that over-sized, unless for some ungodly reason someone put a motor that large into some mid-size chassis like what I'm looking for.

Settling for a 5" or 4" of course would speed things up a lot, but then I can kiss the 6 way, and maybe even a 4 way good bye.

 

[Jags]

Because of the low pressure (2000 psi) I would stay with the 6" and probably a 4 way if you wanted one.

 

[Jags]

WARNING - Jags opinion follows...

I have been splitting for awhile now. I average about 5 cords per year just to put things into prospective. I have built 3 log splitters. The one I use at home has a log lift. - again to put things into prospective. Oh - and I own a loader tractor, also. And I live on a farm-et. (sound familiar?)

Get your tractor - with a loader - your gonna want it for a farm-et.

Build your splitter. The design is up to you, but by the time you try to put the components together to build a usable PTO driven splitter at 2000 PSI and a large (6" ram) you will be right at the same place as a stand alone unit with a 28 GPM two stage, a reclaimed lawn mower engine of 14+ HP and a 5" ram that at 2500+ psi will seriously out perform the PTO driven one.

Use the tractor to help facilitate feeding the splitter. You win.

I understand that you are looking at a log lift option but keep in mind that you have to get those rounds to the lift. Also - if you are not stacking right where you are splitting, the loader works well to off load the splits from the splitter into the bucket and drive to where you are gonna stack.

 

[CombatChris]

Curiosity still not sated, look at this...

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Fun starts about 1 min in. I want to know what kind of style you call that kind of cutter. Compared to wrestling again and again large 1/2's or 1/4's, this seems ideal. Even for something only 12-16" in diameter.

I would call that machine fast. And I would think that the way it's splitting with that number of blades, is all the speed and power I would need. And he's running off a PTO pump.

But hey, nothing is decided. I like the idea of the tractor as a shuttle too and from the splitter. I think if I go with a standalone, I would still like to have a setup similar in blade configuration to what's shown here- unless someone's got experiences which might help me otherwise.

 

[Jags]

You are comparing apples to horse shoes. That is a 60hp diesel compared to a 30-35 hp gasser. Not even close. And you will notice that the old IH is spitting a plume of smoke on every stroke (meaning that it is USING that HP).
The adjustable wedge is a modified "box" wedge.
Anything can be built... But with your above parameters of a 30 hp tractor a 21 GPM pump @ 2000 PSI and a 6" ram to maintain decent splitting pressure you are limited in the available pressure/speed capabilities of those components.

All that being said - that is a pretty neat splitter. I really like the design.

Be aware - that box blade design takes mucho push to be effective (not getting stuck).

 

[CombatChris]

Well, I was looking for diesel model tractors, not the gassers. Also, something in the range in terms of wheelebase, which for only 7" than a basic 3000 more opens up some of the larger 4XXX and 3XXX size tractors from Ford. So finding something with a 60hp diesel isn't a stretch of the imagination if the budget is there. BUT, I found this:

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Claimed to be an 85 Ton splitter and powered by his 100 HP tractor. And if it's belching smoke on a serious workload, he's either revving well under his PTO speed, or he's got a pump setup which actually takes advantage of all or most of his true PTO speed power - which I don't even want to try to emulate.

But I would settle for a 28gpm 2-stage stand-alone if I can get it set up as effectively as his in terms of the way it handles the wood for him.

 

[CombatChris]

It looks like the kind of tractors I'm considering will in no way shape or form come with the 1000 RPM PTO needed to get the 40 GPM @ 2000 PSI pump. The best that can be managed is 21 GPM @ 2000 RPM which is quite disappointing. I put together a chart to do the math for me in terms of dimensions and volumes, speed of stroke, and tonnage.



If that makes sense, great. If not, the blue 4-8 is diameter of the piston. Connect them to varied pumps to get 40 GPM (nope!), 28 GPM (largest 2-stage I can find) and 7 GPM (the 2nd stage!). Tons shown in green are the results of the cylinders of various sizes when connected to the pumps of various PSI's.

One thing I've noticed is that I think I'll try and find a 7" piston for a 2 stage pump. If you look, it's got, at the LOW PRESSURE of 900 PSI, almost as much force as the 4" @ 3000psi. So a good many things it'll split without even slowing down, and do it with a 8.5s (1 way) push. If it does hit something really solid, bam 57 tons (albeit quite slow), but I'm planning on running a box wedge anyways for cutting 5 pieces at a time. I think I can live with slow if I save my back from having to pick things up and re-split them all the time.

This thought process has been really helpful, and I can stop looking at tractors which really would be too big for my needs, and now focus on attachments, price, economy, parts, etc and stop trying to find something with a min of 60 PTO HP.

 

[Oldman47]

Standard PTO speed is 540 RPM. Some of the more modern tractors also offer a 1000 RPM PTO but I have not seen anything faster than that.

 

[CombatChris]

Yup, that's known.

The best 540 RPM pump I could find is only capable of only providing 21 GPM @ 2000 PSI. Unacceptable by the numbers when comparing to the other options.

If 1000 RPM PTO were available in the tractors I'm looking at, sure - but anything 540 isn't going to cut it.

 

[Squirrel]

Be aware that if you start talking high speed + high pressure you are going to need something in the system to relieve shock loading, regular pressure relief valves won't be fast enough. With cylinders the size you are talking you may also need something to compensate for temperature changes. There are reasons most splitters are built the way/size they are.

 

[kevin j]

Pto speed is rated at about 3/4 engine speed or more so if you plan on lower engine dpeed flow goes down

Older farm tractors 60 to 100 hp are much cheaper here than hobby tractors 20 to 50 hp. Too small for ag use and most hobby farms think too big and clumsy

I second jags: tractor and loader (or skidsteer) and separate $1000 splitter

 

[notshubby]

Curiosity still not sated, look at this...

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Fun starts about 1 min in. I want to know what kind of style you call that kind of cutter. Compared to wrestling again and again large 1/2's or 1/4's, this seems ideal. Even for something only 12-16" in diameter.

I would call that machine fast. And I would think that the way it's splitting with that number of blades, is all the speed and power I would need. And he's running off a PTO pump.

But hey, nothing is decided. I like the idea of the tractor as a shuttle too and from the splitter. I think if I go with a standalone, I would still like to have a setup similar in blade configuration to what's shown here- unless someone's got experiences which might help me otherwise.

it looks like this guy is splitting 10 to 12 inch long rounds from the look of it and that will have an effect on force required to split. I also don't understand why everyone is so hung up on cycle times. my splitter is not fast with 16gpm pump and 5 inch cyl, but my wife and I split enough wood to easily last a whole winter over a weekend. with her running the handle and me loading unloading.

 

[jaoneill]

it looks like this guy is splitting 10 to 12 inch long rounds from the look of it and that will have an effect on force required to split. I also don't understand why everyone is so hung up on cycle times. my splitter is not fast with 16gpm pump and 5 inch cyl, but my wife and I split enough wood to easily last a whole winter over a weekend. with her running the handle and me loading unloading.

I would agree with your take on speed. We have, in the past, before modern efficient heating appliances, when kids were all home and we were heating all 5K sq ft of living space, used around 20 cord a year. For many years I would block up the rounds at the landing as time allowed. Then we used six tractors (2 with loaders), 2 splitters, three 4yd dump wagons and 8-9 hefty young lads to split, haul and stack 20 cord (+/-) on a weekend. I know from experience that cycle speed is useless unless you have the bodies to feed the process.

To take adventage of anything under a 10 sec cycle time requires at least three fit people, and they will wear down after a couple of hours. With only one or two people to man the splitter, faster cycle times are a wasteful investment, and waste of fuel. My $.02

 

[CombatChris]

I can hear you on keeping it fed, the more I think about it. I'll settle for slow and steady if I can also get up to 6 pieces out of a single pass with a box wedge.

 

[jaoneill]

I can hear you on keeping it fed, the more I think about it. I'll settle for slow and steady if I can also get up to 6 pieces out of a single pass with a box wedge.

With the amount of wood you will need to heat a TinyHome, especially if it were to be well insulated, and in NC, anything more than a run-of-the-mill 20 ton splitter would be overkill. I built this splitter out of what scrap iron I had around in 1976, but bought a new 5" cylinder and control valve. It is currently hanging on the back of my 70 hp Sweet Allis. I timed it today; working by myself, I split a cord of sugar maple 18"-20" rounds in an hour and 15 minutes. I had Allis running at a fast idle (1300 rpm), full cycle time, up & down, at that rpm is 16 sec. However, one seldom goes completely down; most splits fall off before the head of the wedge is below the top of the wood, reducing the real life cycle to more like 8-10 sec. It is a different story with something nasty, like green elm, but most maple, oak, beech, cherry, etc rarely requires full extension of the cylinder.