Did you get a Permit for your install??

[Mrs-GVA]

Question for Mrs. GVA, I told my agent that I was removing an existing heatalator fireplace, turning the opening into an alcove and installing a wood stove. He said that was no problem as there was a fireplace first and not to worry about a permit.

I get calls from Sales on a regular basis asking me hypothetical questions, because they just don't know claims. In my opinion an agent wants to keep your business and figures that the odds of something happening are slim. My response to hypothetical questions.....When the hypothetical claim gets reported I'll perform my hypothetical investigation. The insurance agent is putting himself out there for a law suit. He doesn't handle claims, did you go from a zero clearance to a wood stove? Did you completely change the firebox? If so, how can he tell you not to worry about it? Send him an e-mail and ask him, if he replies again not to worry about it, print it out and put it in a safe place.....if you ever had a loss.....either your homeowners or his liability insurance would pay for the claim! When you did the construction, didn't you have to pull a building permit? If you pulled the permit for the building, they probably included the wood stove. As far as my freakout on premium fraud....your already paying for the fireplace....that shouldn't change anything. Can't you just go down to your local town office and pull the permit now just to have it cleared? If you did it correctly, you shouldn't have a problem, getting the inspector to sign off. Then you'll be all set and be able to sleep at night knowing your insurance company shouldn't deny your claim. You'll notice I said "shouldn't". ;-)

 

[Mrs-GVA]

World of difference in pulling a permit and informing your insurance company. Craig didn't say not tell the insurance company, he just said insurance will pay off without a permit.

And Mrs. GVH as bad as I am at electrical I could burn the house down a lot faster installing a dimmer switch than a stove.

Then don't do the work. I should hope you are carrying liability insurance if your working in other people's homes.

Regarding the permit....lets hope the claim doesn't come through me.....no permit, fire....I'm not paying. Sorry. It obviously wasn't installed correctly to have caused the fire.

 

[BrotherBart]

Sorry. It obviously wasn't installed correctly to have caused the fire.

Think about that a minute.

 

[webbie]

Mrs. GVA knows her stuff, but we always have to remember the pecking order in this world. It starts with the Banks and Mortgage companies. Then there are the insurance experts you can hire to represent yourself against the "bad" insurance company that turns down claims.

As I said before, I cannot imagine a $700,000 house burning down and the company denying the claim - therefore leaving the bank and mortgage company with no money and also a lien against the former homeowner. While I am sure it happens and GVA can probably point to one, again - what would the bank or Fannie May, etc. say? The entire market would fall apart if any % of homeowner claims were not paid.

As we all know, the largest percentage of house fires are not caused by stoves or fireplaces. They are caused by many other factors, but to relate it to permits many of these factors are because the homeowner did not read or follow the installation or operation directions. So, it makes sense then that the claims could be turned down because we let the toaster and the coffee maker plug into a thin extension cord......it that true? of course not. Insurance companies work on the premise that people act in predictable ways and do not want to endanger themselves.

So, to put it in another way, if said house burns down and Ms. GVA looks over the file and finds out that a dimmer switch caused the fire - or that a gas dryer with a clogged up vent (installed or maintained wrong) did the job, would the claim be turned down...or, more accurately, will the claim end up being paid (many are turned down, of course, but most of these are paid)......it is the job of most insurance companies to take in as much as possible and pay out as little as possible - that is always obvious.

My insurance company sent me a questionnaire about stoves - asking if my stove was made of cast iron or cast aluminum? Never mind that there is no such thing as a cast aluminum stove (it would melt).......

In summary, I would not lie on an insurance form - that is similar to being asked if you smoke when buying life insurance. They won't pay if they find out you smoked and died from lung cancer! But I really want to hear someone explain how hundreds of billions of dollars of materials exits Home Depot, Lowes, Hardware stores and lumber yards...is installed into homes without permits (a high % of it, and no one can deny this), and YET, the mortgage and banking industry still function meaning claims on all this stuff are - by and large - paid off.

 

[Mrs-GVA]

Sorry. It obviously wasn't installed correctly to have caused the fire.

Think about that a minute.

I've been thinking....don't have a clue what you want me to think about. As I stated, no permit....fire present from the stove... obviously installed incorrectly to have caused the fire, end of story. If a permit is pulled, fire occurs....insurance pays. My point....pull the permit. You are installing a device which contains FIRE. Why wouldn't you want a 2nd pair of eyes looking at the install. Unless your a hack or you are saving a buck and hiring a hack to install.

 

[BrotherBart]

The only time I ever set my house on fire was by improperly installing a frying pan on the stove in the kitchen.

 

[Mrs-GVA]

Web you are correct that there are mortgage companies that need there interests protected. They are. First of all most consumers do not realize the banks have a special insurance coverage in this type of situation that will protect their interest. You are correct in the homeowners insurance to a point. Lets say my house burned down because I put in a wood burning stove and didn't pull the permit. My insurance company would probably pay the loan off to the bank but none of that money would be to go to the homeowner for rebuilding. That will also happen if someone doesn't carry the proper amount of insurance. If you state your home is only worth $100k and it is actually worth $500k, if you don't maintain 80-90% of the property worth (the house not the land), they won't pay your claim, but if the lien holder is listed as an insurable interest, their interest will be repaid. But that's it. I don't think, that relieves the homeowner of the debt, but I would need to check that out. I have had a lot of education with property insurance, but I've concentrated on Liability and Workers' Compensation. Permits also come into play with Homeowners Liability.

 

[Mrs-GVA]

The only time I ever set my house on fire was by improperly installing a frying pan on the stove in the kitchen.

GVA went out and bought a fire extinguisher for the kitchen....Doesn't say much about my cooking does it? :red:

 

[Highbeam]

I'm not paying. Sorry. It obviously wasn't installed correctly to have caused the fire.

That's silly. A chimney fire could burn a house down and a chimney fire can happen on a properly installed stove.

 

[BrotherBart]

The only time I ever set my house on fire was by improperly installing a frying pan on the stove in the kitchen.

GVA went out and bought a fire extinguisher for the kitchen....Doesn't say much about my cooking does it? :red:

Believe me, your cooking has nothing to do with it. As an adjuster you already know that the main sources of house fires are grease fires and candles. Wood stoves don't even make the top twenty.

I have a 10 pound ABC extingisher in every room of the house and I still made five runs back into that inferno before I got it put out. I will eat my French fries at McDonalds from now on. The fire department is far enough away that this place would have been gone by the time they got here. I now have four more 10 ABCs in the garage and a Scott's air pack in there so that I don't get my ass kicked by the smoke and fumes if it happens again. Gained a whole new respect for firemen that day. Even though they never showed up on the call.

Whether the insurance would pay for the house was the last of my concerns that day. Getting my invalid wife down those stairs was. They will never make an insurance policy that could replace that gal.

PS: Both of the stoves in the house have been recorded with the insurance company for twenty-two years. The County Fire Marshall did the original inspection and the dork at the County got the do the little inspection tour when I replaced them last year. Saw his first stainless liners.

 

[Mrs-GVA]

BB, again, I was only talking about the context of DID YOU GET A PERMIT FOR YOUR INSTALL. Your right, if its a grease fire, electrical fire, burning cigerette (not arson), the permit of the wood stove would be irrelevant in that situation wouldn't it? My point was if the pellet stove, wood burning stove, gas stove (explosion), was not permitted and either caused a fire in the house or an explosion, and a permit wasn't pulled, chances are, your insurance company would not pay. If a permit was pulled, that would stop that portion of the investigation wouldn't it? If the fire was no where near then woodstove, why would they care? It isn't the cause of the fire.

For example, if you replaced your home heating source, furnace, boiler, whatever, and you installed it yourself, and didn't pull a permit. It explodes. Is your insurance going to cover the loss, probably not because if you didn't pull the permit, and your workmanship (or lack of) caused it to explode. Chances are your insurance insn't going to cover the loss.

Now, if your kitchen catches on fire due to a grease fire in your kitchen oven... would your insurance pay? Granted an investigation needs to be done, but it wouldn't be denied because you failed to pull a permit to install your woodstove, fireplace, chimney, pellet stove...whatever.

Make sense?

 

[Mrs-GVA]

I'm not paying. Sorry. It obviously wasn't installed correctly to have caused the fire.

That's silly. A chimney fire could burn a house down and a chimney fire can happen on a properly installed stove.

Again, I cannot hypothetically investigate a hypothetical claim, because there are many scenerios surrounding a claim. But I can assure you, I would have my expert come in, assess what caused the fire, if it had to do with an improper installation....I would then check if it was properly permitted. If not.....CLAIM DENIED. However, my expert would also be able to clarify if the fire was a chimney fire from whatever by the damage within the chimney. If the permit was pulled, and cleared by the inspector, regardless of his competency, the claim would need to be honored. I have to assume that the inspector is an expert and approved the install to be hired by the city/town. Plus a properly installed liner should contain the chimney fire, and should therefore eliminate the house from burning down. Correct?

 

[webbie]

This is slightly OT, but years ago I constantly had customers come to my shop who had MANY thousands of dollars given to them by their insurance companies because their masonry chimneys had cracked tiles. In most of these cases, there was no recorded chimney fire - and I can assure you no permit pulled except the original house construction - you can get your bippy that they don't check (or often even have records) of each house and inspection from 60 years ago -our township only had about 20 years of records.

Anyways, these people would have a sweep come out to check their chimney, then the sweep would report broken tiles and tell the customer that they must have had a chimney fire or some foundation settling which cracked the tiles. The insurance companies would pay - pretty big bucks at the time. It always pissed me off, since I knew the companies should not be paying on this kind of stuff - this was simply wear and tear - like asking them to replace your roof when it wore out!

Although I have no real world experience, I still cannot imagine an insurance company checking to see if a permit was pulled on a particular replacement gas dryer or range which caused a fire. Although I cannot dispute the Ms., I still have not heard why the same % of claims are not turned down as stuff installed without a permit. In other words, it makes sense that if 70% of certain jobs (electrical, plumbing, hot water heater replacement, etc.) are done without permits, then 70% of the accidents caused by such would not be paid.

Perhaps Ms. GVA can clarify approx what percentage of large homeowner claims (over 100,000) are not paid.

As mentioned above, most insurance companies do send out surveys these days - and some of these do ask about the permit. If one told the truth (for instance, stove but no permit) on the survey, then it is up to the insurance company to get back to the homeowner and tell them to get one (if they needed such).

As computer systems improve, we might say Big Brother is watching closer. In the past un-permitted work was hard to catch. Now some Twps want to inspect every house before it sells for certain things.....and some buyers ask more questions.

I think the real question here is all those in-between jobs.....installing a stove to replace another, installing an insert into an existing fireplace. Somewhere there is a line - for instance, as explained to me you don't need a permit for a window air conditioner...even though it can fall on someones head, the family car or overheat an electrical connection. You probably break the "law" when you replace a circuit breaker in your electrical panel...you surely do if you do it for a friend! So would the insurance company...if the fire started in the electrical box, find the 2 or 3 replaced breakers, and then try to not pay the claim?

We should also clarify that in the case of the wood stove permit, we are only talking about not paying the claim if the stove caused the fire......I assume? If the alarm clock causes the fire, and yet the house contains $50,000 of un-permitted work (but is fully insured for value), I assume they would have to pay......

 

[karl]

I would like someone to chime in on rural areas. There are counties in neighboring Ohio that are so rural people are building houses without permits. There are no towns in the whole county to get a permit from. Somebody is surely insuring these.

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

Webmaster:

By the tone of your responses, you are obviously condoning not getting a permit. While we would all like for this to be an acceptable way to install things, it simply is NOT correct to encourage people to NOT get permits for their stoves.

As the owner of a stove and fireplace website, That may even seem a bit irresponsible. I don't say that I don't wish it were the way you describe, but as others have said, many claims have NOT been covered (or would not have been), unless the proper permit was pulled and inspected.

You just banned another member from giving out inncorrect information; should we now ban you?

 

[webbie]

Mr. Super - talking and discussing things is not either condoning or not condoning. When a member asks a question, multiple members give responses based on their own limited knowledge and experience. If you think I am irresponsible, then you can start a site and I will send people there for free for your regarded opinion.

And we have never banned a member for an opinion. We have 2+ million readers a year, and I can count on one hand the banned forum members - perhaps you could do better - or perhaps you think even people who rant about killing me or such things should have "free speech" here, but it ain't gonna happen. If you would like exact reasons for those 5 bannings over 2 years time, please PM me and I will attempt to satisfy your curiosity.

And on the same topic - once again - please accept my invitation to PM or email me if you have a problem. You can also set the BB to ignore me...or, you can simply leave. But you are obviously not following rules #3 and #4.

If I wanted to follow your train of thought, I could have a one page web site:

1. Read your manual and follow every word
2. Get a permit and ask the inspector what to do - follow every bit of advice

It would be a very short page. It also would not work.

Now, if you would like to continue the discussion in a civil manner, we should ask what the millions of people who live in unzoned areas where houses are built and remodeling done with no permit do - do you think they do not have insurance or mortgages?

If Mr. Hunk wants to work hard against the enemy, I would suggest standing outside the doorway of his local Lowes and making certain those folks leaving with the 440 volt electrical supplies are fully licensed.

I lived in West Virginia and Tenn. - I can assure you that many areas were not incorporated and didn't know a permit from a soy latte. Yet people had houses, mortgages and cars.....

Lastly, I would urge you and others to look at the title of the thread - it is a question. You seem to think we should simply scare everyone away that didn't get a permit. I think we should educate them as to peoples experience. That is the value of opinion(s).

So do your homework about whether or not anyone is banned and read the thread titles - and participate if you like. But calling folks stupid (flunk an IQ test), and telling us all that it IS FOR CERTAIN your way or the highway is not the way of this forum.

 

[littlesmokey]

This is slightly OT, but years ago I constantly had customers come to my shop who had MANY thousands of dollars given to them by their insurance companies because their masonry chimneys had cracked tiles. In most of these cases, there was no recorded chimney fire - and I can assure you no permit pulled except the original house construction - you can get your bippy that they don't check (or often even have records) of each house and inspection from 60 years ago -our township only had about 20 years of records.

Anyways, these people would have a sweep come out to check their chimney, then the sweep would report broken tiles and tell the customer that they must have had a chimney fire or some foundation settling which cracked the tiles. The insurance companies would pay - pretty big bucks at the time. It always pissed me off, since I knew the companies should not be paying on this kind of stuff - this was simply wear and tear - like asking them to replace your roof when it wore out!
.

I tried to follow the thread to the end, but... I think the insurance companies were smart. Pay a few to the folks claiming falure and it's cheap. When they can't prove they repairs, as the money was spent on sodas and tacos, they can deny the real claim.

So as I read on, expect more anger.

 

[littlesmokey]

OOPs, sorry, I didn't read the Webmasters post, before my response. Apparently there is a lot more going on here than I thought. I promise I will be quite for awhile, sit in the corner and read all posts, good bad or well, indifferent.

 

[webbie]

Well, it's not really anger - it's just that insurance companies seem to follow the same rules as everyone else- the squeaking wheel gets the grease. Those homeowners who shoved a report from some two-bit (or one bit or three bit) chimney sweep in the faces of their agent got bucks for a repair - and all of our premiums go up.

I can't see where (current) anger comes into a simple question. If I want to get a permit to hang a picture or build an addition, that is my business (and of course, it extends to my insurance company, family, etc.) . If I make the wrong move, I suffer the consequences. For some amazing reasons, all my condoning of lawlessness has gotten me through 50 something years of this life without a major calamity. Maybe someday I will reach the lofty heights of doing everything by the 10,000 page book (actually, multiple books), but until then I simply do what I think it right given the particular situation and based on my own and others experience.

 

[begreen]

For some amazing reasons, all my condoning of lawlessness has gotten me through 50 something years of this life without a major calamity. Maybe someday I will reach the lofty heights of doing everything by the 10,000 page book (actually, multiple books), but until then I simply do what I think it right given the particular situation and based on my own and others experience.

I'm not angel and agree that the last one I will call is the county unless I am doing something major. But I have a fair amount of life knowledge accrued and am confident that I am going to do it as right as possible.

On the other hand, there are a lot of folks back in the hills that used single wall through a piece of sheet metal in a removed window pane, pipe held up with baling wire. For some unknown reason, nothing burned down. But is that a reason to condone it on an international site that is considered the reference for hearth installations?

The problem is that what one person considers right in a particular situation, just because his house and the neighbor's shack are still standing, could be so totally wrong. Not everyone has good common sense. For the majority I recommend, go by the book. I've seen some outrageously dangerous electrical work. True, nothing has burnt down, but in no way would I condone it.

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

You are clouding the minds of your readers web. We are NOT talking about obtaining permits to hang pictures as you mention as this is NOT required by the insurance companies either. We ARE only talking about one thing, and ONE thing only; that being obtaining a permit to instal a wood stove and or fireplace.

Your rants about not wanting to obtain a permit for every little thing are without merit as a permit is NOT required for every little thing!.

I literally just spoke with my Farmers insurance agent regarding this exact issue. He sais any home heating appliance must be inspected by the local city/county dept. Any heating appliance (wood stove in this case), that was not declared in the original policy will not be covered in any event nor would any damage be as a result of its use.

He did go on to say that they would insure a stove/fireplace as long as the proper permits were obtained and inspected.

These are NOT hypothetical opinions but rather FACTS!. The FACT is (like it or not), you MUST obtain a permit to be fully covered. I know you are at least realistic enough to agree that you are certainly taking your chances without one. agreed?

 

[webbie]

I know you are at least realistic enough to agree that you are certainly taking your chances without one. agreed?

Who is taking chances?
You must have not read my post about having permits for my addition, electrical work and everything my former store has done. I did not get a permit for my fence, but I guess if someone impales themselves on it, you will be right in your assessment.

But, yes, I am taking chances when I take a walk or bike ride, and even more (as you have stated) when I do not read insurance documents or code books or instruction manuals, many of which I have failed (and will continue to fail) to read.

Never the less, the thread asks members whether or not they have gotten permits for various levels of work. Whether it is a picture-hanging or replacement of a light switch, or installation of a ceiling fan or attic fan, there is somewhere each of us draws a line.....and folks want to know where that is.

I notice a lot of people eating fatty foods also. I notice a lot of people buying stuff in HD and not getting permits. I have no effect (or very little) on any of these situations. I am just a civilian (well, to some a 5 star general)....

So, remember, this is a DISCUSSION forum, and if our members really want to be safer I would suggest not burning wood at all - and replacing and maintaining their heating systems regularly...and not using a motorcycle for sure.

 

[webbie]

. He sais any home heating appliance must be inspected by the local city/county dept. Any heating appliance (wood stove in this case), that was not declared in the original policy will not be covered in any event nor would any damage be as a result of its use.

He did go on to say that they would insure a stove/fireplace as long as the proper permits were obtained and inspected.

Electric heaters?
Window mounted heat pump/air conditioners?
Kerosene Heaters?
Alcohol Fireplaces?
A new special air grate (fireplace radiator) for your fireplace?
The replacement of your interior black pipe?
The replacement of one section of your insulated chimney?
The replacement of your entire insulated chimney?
The replacement of your fireplace stainless steel liner?
The replacement of your woodstove after one year under warranty when a weld break?

As you see, it is not between a picture hanging and a full new stove and fireplace install. Most jobs we did at our shop fell within the range above or similar. So, let me know the facts on each of the above in every jurisdiction in the USA and Canada......then maybe we won't need folks to ask questions.

 

[Mr_Super-Hunky]

Web;

multiple, consecutive post replies indicates a flustered state of mind; similar to rapid eye movement. Once again, you mention numerous iteams that permits are NOT required for. Picture hanging, misc home improvements etc. You even go on by using fatty diet analogies, but once again, for the last time, we are only talking about one thing..... the need to obtain a permit to instal a wood stove/fireplace; thats it!.

I have stated my point very clearly on this and have not tried to create diversions to other non topic issues like picture hanging and fatty diets.

This will be my last reply on this topic as I have stated my factual claim and can back it up 100% by a letter (to be viewed publically) from our local building dept. As much as your *opinions* are based on wishful thinking, they simply are not true.

I certainly hear your point as to not wanting to obtain a permit for every little thing, we all would agree on that, but *legally*, concerning a stove/fireplace ...(and once again, that is ALL we are talking about), obtaing a permit is the legal code. Condoning anything otherwise is simply incorrect.

 

[Mrs-GVA]

Listen, I really don't care whether you pull a permit or not. If there is a fire as a result of an improper install, I really don't care. You are not effecting me unless I am adjusting your claim. Most of the people in this forum are not in my area. I responded to the question. I strongly urged people to pull a permit when installing a heating device in their home. If you don't want to....because it is a PITA, don't, again, I really don't care. GVA and I did pulled the permit. Legally you are required to pull a permit. And Web, I don't need to defend how many claims occur each year due to a stove. The lawful thing to do, and the right thing to do, is pull a permit. You don't want to pull one for installing a fence, don't, again....I really don't care....you lack of doing what is legally expected of you is not my business.