Debating about a stove purchase for a new home build

[kingofcreosote]

Building a new house in North Idaho. R45 ceiling, R23 walls. Daylight basement with R5 foam on the outside of the concrete walls. Around 1,800 square feet or so and two stories. Wood stove will be in the basement with the stove pipe going straight up (so pretty tall). Single wall pipe on the inside to class A once it hits the chimney.

Right now we have a 1980 doublewide with a Napolean 1450 (EPA, but older) as our stove. Wood is our primary heat source. We're able to keep the place warm, though regulating temperature can be tricky, especially at night.

I've been researching EPA vs pre-EPA stoves, cat vs non-cat, etc. People really seem to love Blazeking and I think the Princess would be sized about correctly for us.

I did find an older Princess stove with a cat for under $1,000. I don't know a lot about it, but it's a 8" flue. How would that compare to the modern Princess? Are long burn times attainable? Can I reduce the 8" flue to 6" without serious issue?

Overnight burns are great, as is being able to leave the stove for a day trip and get back to it going. We like to keep the main part of the house around 70, maybe a little under, and the bedrooms in the lower 60s.

I'd like to be able to have low output throughout the day, vs starting fires here and there. I currently am able to stock the stove in the double wide with small pieces throughout the day, which works okay. The stove in the new house won't be quite as convenient/central to monitor.

Are the minimum heat outputs lower with smaller models and higher with larger? Does this apply to other stove brands as well?

I'm also interested in Kuma stoves. Our neighbor seems to do pretty well with theirs. Though the 30-40 hour burn times (I doubt we'd use those that often) are unheard of with Kumas, vs fairly common with Blazekings.

Thank you!

 

[stoveliker]

For a BK don't use single wall stove pipe; especially with a tall flue..you might end up too cool at the top leading to creosote plugging.

The minimums of the smaller stoves are similar, the maximum output is not. That may be different for another stove brands.

Overnight burns are easy with a BK. In fact I've gotten 36-37 hours (with red oak and of course very low heat output).
But any 2.5+ cubic foot will allow reloads in the morning without lighting it up from start.

40 hrs is only with the King model.
It's not common though as most folks need a bit more heat than 3.5 plug in heaters of 1.5 kW (which is the minimum output of a BK 30 model or princess).

I'd not put in an 8" flue.. costs a lot and limits future stove choices.

 

[kingofcreosote]

Good to know about the single walled pipe for Blazeking. I can see single walled pipe being more useful with a less efficient stove.

Unfortunately, no red oak up here. Tamarack is the best we have.

Really would prefer to not have the extra expensive of the 8" chimney, mostly over the class A pipe. But I imagine it would creosote a lot slower.

Do you know where the minimum burn figures are posted?

Edit: Blazeking's website has "Constant Heat Output on Low" figures. They are definitely lower on the smaller models, although not tremendously so.

Princess states: 12,576 BTU's per hour for up to 30 hours

Could I get less than that per hour with a smaller load that wouldn't last as long? Or is that the lowest practical output, regardless of how full the firebox is?

How would the pre-EPA Princess compare to the current Princess? Is it notably different on any of the specifications, or pretty close?

 

[stoveliker]

The blaze king website has manuals and brochures with a BTU per hour output for the slow burn. I.e. the lowest output. It's around 12,000 BTU per hour for the models 30 and the princess.

Ah, I see your edit. Yes smaller but not much.
Less is hard; this is the output coming mostly from the catalyst at this point and you need to keep that active if you burn with no flame.

Creosote is created by having too dirty exhaust (smoke) by either choking the fire too much or, more often with an unmodified EPA stove, having wood that's too wet.
A chimney can have that condense by cooling the gases to below the condensation temperature (of water). Cooling happens just by gases being in the chimney, by having single wall stove pipe, by having a tall chimney (gases are in there longer), or by having a flue that's too large, as it'll slow down the speed of flow.

Blaze King is made in tamarack country in WA, so that is all good. Those burn times advertised are with fir, not oak. I got more than the advertised time by having a very full box of red oak.

 

[stoveliker]

I don't know the pre EPA princess. If you can, get a modern one. BK has evolved in good ways over time.

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

I have the smaller kuma (Aspen) and like it a lot. My little 1.8 cu ft firebox can get me through the night with a few coals to start with in the morning. They don't go as low as a BK but go pretty low.

They breathe pretty easy so if you do it I'd reccomend having a flue damper.

 

[EbS-P]

Make sure to get a blower door test. Will an outside air be a a simple install? ERV? Do you have a heating load calculation?

 

[kingofcreosote]

I have the smaller kuma (Aspen) and like it a lot. My little 1.8 cu ft firebox can get me through the night with a few coals to start with in the morning. They don't go aslow as a BK but go pretty low.

They breathe pretty easy so if you do it I'd reccomend having a flue dampe

My neighbors have that stove and they really like it. Seems to hold coals for a long time, even with the small fire box. What kind of square footage do you have?

I'm curious why the BK burn times are so much longer than the Kumas. Is your Aspen a LE model? I think 2020 and later. I assume yours has a catalyst?

Make sure to get a blower door test. Will an outside air be a a simple install? ERV? Do you have a heating load calculation?

Not sure what a blower door test is, nor ERV, or a heating load calculation. In the mobile home we have outside air. Outside air is probably doable, although would look a little wonky and be a little bit of a pain.

I just know that we will have way more insulation than we have now, so heating up the space should be much easier.

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

My neighbors have that stove and they really like it. Seems to hold coals for a long time, even with the small fire box. What kind of square footage do you have?

I'm curious why the BK burn times are so much longer than the Kumas. Is your Aspen a LE model? I think 2020 and later. I assume yours has a catalyst?

We are very small sub 1200 square foot. This time of year I get by on one fire a day. And yeah for a little firebox it punches strong burns quite clean one of the most efficient stoves made when looking at EPA testing.

BK stoves are purely catalytic not a hybrid like mine. They seem to be the best around at being turned down low. This is less of a big deal if you are heating a larger space and don't need the uber low end input. And I believe the Kuma is cheaper which may give you some cash to upgrade that pipe to double wall.

 

[EbS-P]

My neighbors have that stove and they really like it. Seems to hold coals for a long time, even with the small fire box. What kind of square footage do you have?

I'm curious why the BK burn times are so much longer than the Kumas. Is your Aspen a LE model? I think 2020 and later. I assume yours has a catalyst?



Not sure what a blower door test is, nor ERV, or a heating load calculation. In the mobile home we have outside air. Outside air is probably doable, although would look a little wonky and be a little bit of a pain.

I just know that we will have way more insulation than we have now, so heating up the space should be much easier.

Have any permits been pulled or inspections done? A blower door test determines how tightly sealed the house is. heating load calculation tells you how big a heater you need and an ERV allows fresh air to be exchanged with house air while recovering the heat from the house air.

 

[Highbeam]

I'd like to be able to have low output throughout the day, vs starting fires here and there. The stove in the new house won't be quite as convenient/central to monitor.


I'm also interested in Kuma stoves.

I have a princess in a 1700 SF home from 1963 in the cascade foothills of WA. We burn the same low btu softwoods, sometimes maple too. I moved to a new princess in 2012 after using a modern 2.3 CF hearthstone noncat for a few reasons but biggest was perfomance. I wanted that long and low burn, easy to get 24 hour reload cycles with the princess so I can load the stove at night and go to bed, wake up, walk past the stove on my way to work all day, come home, eat dinner, and eventually reload. This results in steady warm home all the time with minimum effort and huge wood savings (about 20% compared to the same fuel and load in a noncat). Once it it gets really cold for us which is below 20 I need to throw in a few more logs in the morning as I walk by. Even when we have single digit temperatures and wind I never have to reload any more often then every 12 hours.

The BK thermostat makes it ideal for the basement where it is not as convenient to monitor since it is set and forget. It's also a pretty boring stove to watch when run on low. It's just a few glowing logs through the partially blocked window.

I recommend against the BK king due to the 8" requirement in such a small home. I like outside air connections but if this stove is in a literal basement then be warned that the intake of the outside air duct must not be higher than the firebox floor else your outside air duct could become a chimney!

I like Idaho, and I like the Kuma company. Their stoves tested very well and would work well if longer burn times are not that important. All of their stove models are quite small and their minimum burn rates are quite high so even though they are efficient and make lots of heat, you do not have the option to burn long and low. They used to have a bigger model but stopped making it for some reason.

 

[kingofcreosote]

BK stoves are purely catalytic not a hybrid like mine. They seem to be the best around at being turned down low. This is less of a big deal if you are heating a larger space and don't need the uber low end input. And I believe the Kuma is cheaper which may give you some cash to upgrade that pipe to double wall.

I guess I don't know the difference between a hybrid and pure catalytic stove. I should probably figure that out before buying one!

Have any permits been pulled or inspections done? A blower door test determines how tightly sealed the house is. heating load calculation tells you how big a heater you need and an ERV allows fresh air to be exchanged with house air while recovering the heat from the house air.

No permits/inspections here. The house is being built tight, but hopefully not so tight that it needs something like a electronically controlled air intake. It would be interesting to see how it tested, though. Seems like we could gain some insight, but I just know it's going to be way more efficient and assume we'll be in the ballpark. Hopefully I am right about that.

I have a princess in a 1700 SF home from 1963 in the cascade foothills of WA. We burn the same low btu softwoods, sometimes maple too. I moved to a new princess in 2012 after using a modern 2.3 CF hearthstone noncat for a few reasons but biggest was perfomance. I wanted that long and low burn, easy to get 24 hour reload cycles with the princess so I can load the stove at night and go to bed, wake up, walk past the stove on my way to work all day, come home, eat dinner, and eventually reload. This results in steady warm home all the time with minimum effort and huge wood savings (about 20% compared to the same fuel and load in a noncat). Once it it gets really cold for us which is below 20 I need to throw in a few more logs in the morning as I walk by. Even when we have single digit temperatures and wind I never have to reload any more often then every 12 hours.

The BK thermostat makes it ideal for the basement where it is not as convenient to monitor since it is set and forget. It's also a pretty boring stove to watch when run on low. It's just a few glowing logs through the partially blocked window.

I recommend against the BK king due to the 8" requirement in such a small home. I like outside air connections but if this stove is in a literal basement then be warned that the intake of the outside air duct must not be higher than the firebox floor else your outside air duct could become a chimney!

I like Idaho, and I like the Kuma company. Their stoves tested very well and would work well if longer burn times are not that important. All of their stove models are quite small and their minimum burn rates are quite high so even though they are efficient and make lots of heat, you do not have the option to burn long and low. They used to have a bigger model but stopped making it for some reason.

This is great to hear. Sounds very convenient vs throwing logs on constantly, especially with the house changes.

I did not realize about the outside air intake! I would've just ran it to the bottom of the first story. It would be very challenging to have it come in below the firebox. I assume with the low burn it's not smoking a ton? Our stove tends to smoke quite a bit when we choke it back.

Though I'm also not quite sure how useful it is to have some sub one gram per hour EPA stove when we live very rural and have to burn brush piles.

 

[Warm Floor]

Though I'm also not quite sure how useful it is to have some sub one gram per hour EPA stove when we live very rural and have to burn brush piles.

I live in your neck of the woods, so I understand the burn brush piles negate some of the usefulness. BUT keep in mind that when you're running a BK like the princess you're going to save yourself in the amount of work required of you to store the wood you need to make it through the winter and shoulder months. I've heard testimonials about those who were burning 4-5 cord a winter that switched over to BK and found they reduced down to only needing 3-4 cord after replacing their old stove. That's where the Cat only stove shines in my opinion. The savings on wood required to burn can totally justify the cost of having to replace a cat every 12,000 hours of use, unless your someone who gathers your wood for free, then your only saving on the work required.

 

[Highbeam]

I guess I don't know the difference between a hybrid and pure catalytic stove. I should probably figure that out before buying one!

Not that important. BK used to have a "hybrid" system but got rid of it due to lack of benefit. When you run low and slow as god intended, the cat does the job perfectly well. If you want to run at high output more often then yes I could see the hybrid feature being helpful but if that's not a rare occurance then you should just buy a noncat and be rid of the catalyst.

 

[Highbeam]

I did not realize about the outside air intake! I would've just ran it to the bottom of the first story. It would be very challenging to have it come in below the firebox. I assume with the low burn it's not smoking a ton? Our stove tends to smoke quite a bit when we choke it back.

Though I'm also not quite sure how useful it is to have some sub one gram per hour EPA stove when we live very rural and have to burn brush piles.

While I'm sure a bit of smoke would not be objectionable to most of us, that smoke is wasted fuel and efficiency plus is gunks up your chimney faster. I do believe that you shouldn't quibble over a gram or two or three per hour. All modern stoves are sufficiently clean.

The BK after the initial burn in of a new load and with a functional catalyst should be essentially smoke free. Nobody should know you are burning if you do your reloads in the dark after work. I've surprised people because they see my log truck loads of firewood but hardly ever see chimney smoke.

 

[stoveliker]

Reading this thread, I strongly suggest that you have a manual J calculation done.
You're guesstimating what you need in a situation where you will be able to quite precisely figure out how much you need.
Stoves are not "ah well, I bought the wrong one (too large or too small) but will make it work - trying to run a stove below OR above it's intended range of output is a major pain in the butt, and likely to lead to unsafe situations.
Do your due diligence now and avoid major frustration later. Comparing a new home to a previous mobile home is just not a way to do so.

Moreover, do read up on ERVs; if your home is tight, you might end up with a stove not getting enough air because the exhaust through the chimney sucks so much air out of the home when not enough can leak in, that you have an underpressure in your home. And that, especially when near the end of a burn or when running low and slow, can lead to carbon monoxide exiting your stove through the air intake. CO is deadly and you may not notice it being there. (Hopefully your CO alarms work and are mounted in the right places.)