Dealing with Electric Co. - Service Upgrade

[Ashful]

LOL... well we'll have to get under the driveway, but that's a surmountable challenge. Tons of buried utilities on this property (a veritable spiderweb!), so I won't be doing it myself with a backhoe, as fun as that could be!

Our utility room is in the basement below our kitchen,the 1894 addition in the middle of the house. We're going to be razing and rebuilding that addition in summer 2016, and so that might be the time to do the service upgrade.

 

[jharkin]

I will follow what you find out with interest. When we moved in and had the supply updated from 100A to 200A, like you they didn't change the aerial wires. So Ive got something like 4/0 aluminum running up to the weather head and then really puny wires running from there to the utility pole. Transformer is about 3 houses up the hill.

I had asked my electrician about that at the time and he told me the utility never changes the drop unless you really $#(*$#(*% and they will claim their wires can be a lot skinnier because they are in free air.

In the summer when all our ACs are running an you had the dryer or the oven going as well I would at times see the voltage drop enough for the UPS to buzz... But over the years we have been moving loads off the electric (replaced elec oven with gas), tightening up the house has let me get away with one less AC, and we switched most of the lighting to LED that doesn't dim as visibly in minor undervolts. So it doesn't seem to be so bad anymore.- except for those summer days when the entire grid is browned out.

That and I got tired of replacing UPS batteries that keep puking out every 3 years and just left it disconnected last time... Maybe my power is still bad and I just dont notice.

 

[woodgeek]

Just a random factoid. When I bought my house it had an old 100A breaker box, which I upgraded to a 200A box when I put in my HP.

some observations:
1) before (100A), no dimming lights, afterward (200A) lights blinked when the HP kicked on.
2) my transformer is >1/4 mi away away serving 10 houses or so.
3) I expected the aerial lines to get upgraded by the utility...nope. The utility uses one gauge for residential.
4) My wiring up to the weatherhead was replaced and upsized.

I was kinda miffed about the blinking, and some hard starts on the HP, kinda thinking along the lines of Joful, how do I fix this???

Resolution:
--The crimp connectors tying my wires to the utilities wires at the weatherhead were done incorrectly and/or with substandard parts. One leg had a weak connection.
--this was discovered (4 years later) when half of the circuits in my house 'browned out', while the other circuits were 100%. The dead side was getting some power through unhappy 240V loads....
--I diagnosed the problem (one leg disconnected, on the grid side of my box), and after explaining the problem to the power co (like 4 times, since they don't expect such info from a homewowner), they sent out a guy who had it diagnosed and fixed in ~5 mins, free of charge (since he agreed to call the connector part of the utilities equipment).
--two new solid connectors...no blinkies. EVER.

Bottom line: Joful, you could just have 1 or more weak connections between the grid and your house. Not too hard to find for a person with the right equipment. Instead of calling the co asking for a new transformer, you could complain that you are getting intermittent brownouts (perhaps an exaggeration) and you need them to inspect their connections.

At the very least they can measure your voltage at your box, and at the wires on the street....if they're different...you have a weak connection. If the street voltage is low....then maybe they need to add a transformer.

 

[CaptSpiff]

... they (Power Co) sent out a guy who had it diagnosed and fixed in ~5 mins, free of charge (since he agreed to call the connector part of the utilities equipment).

What you had is referred to as "flicker" or "part lights". Using those words usually gets a service tech dispatched within 24 hrs if there is no inclement weather. Those service techs have no financial incentive to blow you off, but they also have a half dozen calls pending after you, so if it's on your side of the weather head, then it's between you & your electrician.

In an overhead distribution system, typically you own the Service wire from the panel to the meter pan, the meter pan, and the Service wire to the Weather Head. All commonly called the HOUSE SERVICE.
The Power Co typically owns the Meter and the "TriPlex wire" from the Weather Head to the pole and beyond. Commonly called the SERVICE DROP.
Most time they'll have a standard "service drop" installed for all homes, but if you have multiple meters or heavy equipment then they can run a heavier gauge service drop. If the service tech has a spool on the truck and a light work load he'll do it right there and then. If he won't or can't, then you need to contact the department who handles new connections. If that number is unpublished then ask any electrician. They can quickly tell you the process to get a Service Drop upgrade.
There is some risk to this later process. If the Power Co determines that they need to install equipment above and beyond standard for residential service standards, like if you were running a business with high demand load, you could be placed on a "demand charge rate" which would be very undesirable.

The bottom line for Joful is to call PECO and complain about bad "flicker" in the lights. First thing in the morning, go on the PECO web site and look to see how many customer outages are active with in 5-10 miles of the house (suburban setting). If it's only one or two then immediately call the customer service number on the bill for the flicker. You'll get on the list and likely see a service tech that day. Be ready to demonstrate the flicker complaint. Trouble shooting will be complicated as you have a buried service. If your equivalent of a weather head demarcation is at the house, it's easier and the problem will most likely be theirs. If that demarcation is somewhere at the street, or your service drop is part of several other homes, then it'll be a half day of trouble shooting. Be persistent.

PS: those 200kw pad mount transformers in front of your neighbors houses are not likely for one house. More likely they feed 2 to 4 homes. They never have an automatic voltage controlling device (just too expensive). What likely happened is a 13kv line regulator had "sticking controls" and ran to full buck or full boost. All the customers down that phase (including yourself) saw the voltage sag to 105v on one day, then 135v on another day. It usually takes more than one visit for the tech to put it in manual and consider it fixed. All my knowledge is 30 years old, but this stuff hasn't changed much.

 

[burnham]

Try to get the utility to install a recorder on your home so they can see what's going on. That should be free of charge and a good place to start.
Some utilities own the underground wires right up to your meter socket, in other areas those wires are owned by the homeowner. If the transformer is not on your property, you should have some kind of secondary pedestal or splice box. It's unusual for the wires feeding the house to cross roads or property lines without there being a splice box. It sounds like your service could be undersized, but it's hard to say without knowing the actual load on the house. To upgrade your service you may need to upsize some or all of those wires, possibly out of your pocket. As long as the wiring you own now is sized properly (including the wiring up to the place you're checking voltage) there is no way you should be getting voltages in the low 100's or into the 130's. You should have 120 on each leg, plus or minus six volts. With 5 AC units and some equipment that has large loads, I'm sure you and whoever else is fed off your transformer will have some dimming lights this summer. If your problems were only happening when the AC compressors started, I'd say you should try a hard start kit in them, but it sounds like your problems run deeper than that.

 

[Ashful]

If the transformer is not on your property, you should have some kind of secondary pedestal or splice box. It's unusual for the wires feeding the house to cross roads or property lines without there being a splice box.

I suspect these wires were laid in 1986, when this 78-acre farm was converted to a development, and they put the new road in. At that time, this property was pared down to about 23 acres, and the transformer up the road would have been right on the property line. The property has since been subdivided several more times, so it's very likely I have a single run crossing all of those subdivisions.

It sounds like your service could be undersized, but it's hard to say without knowing the actual load on the house.

I do believe that is very likely. The house was expanded dramatically in 1994, and I do not believe the service was upgraded. We have since electrified another 1800 sq.ft., and again, no service upgrade. The house also did not have central AC at the time the service was installed. However, we're seeing voltage drops at utilization well below 200 amps, so assuming the wires were properly sized to the 200A service, there may also be some other problem. It would not be hard to imagine corroded connections on a 1980's (or potentially older) underground service runs.

As long as the wiring you own now is sized properly (including the wiring up to the place you're checking voltage) there is no way you should be getting voltages in the low 100's or into the 130's. You should have 120 on each leg, plus or minus six volts. With 5 AC units and some equipment that has large loads, I'm sure you and whoever else is fed off your transformer will have some dimming lights this summer. If your problems were only happening when the AC compressors started, I'd say you should try a hard start kit in them, but it sounds like your problems run deeper than that.

Thanks. Yes, I agree with everything you say here. One thing I didn't expressly disclose (guess I assume everyone on the forum already knew), is that I'm an electrical engineer. So, my guess at the source of the problem is a fairly well educated one!

 

[Ashful]

@CaptSpiff: Excellent advice thru your whole post. I should probably call them as soon as the temperatures are at a safe point to fire up the AC units. Any idea on the temperature required? I know a standard residential AC unit should not be started in freezing weather.

PS: those 200kw pad mount transformers in front of your neighbors houses are not likely for one house. More likely they feed 2 to 4 homes. They never have an automatic voltage controlling device (just too expensive). What likely happened is a 13kv line regulator had "sticking controls" and ran to full buck or full boost. All the customers down that phase (including yourself) saw the voltage sag to 105v on one day, then 135v on another day. It usually takes more than one visit for the tech to put it in manual and consider it fixed. All my knowledge is 30 years old, but this stuff hasn't changed much.

There's a mix here. The one at the end of my cul-de sac feeds two homes. The neighbor behind me has his own (I literally watched them set it when they built the house last year), as does my next door neighbor (he watched them set it for him when he built his house). Our neighborhood is larger homes (one across the street is over 12,000 sq.ft.) with very long driveways (300 - 1000 ft. off the street), which probably supports them setting individual transformers closer to the house(s).

 

[CaptSpiff]

@ Our neighborhood is larger homes (one across the street is over 12,000 sq.ft.) with very long driveways (300 - 1000 ft. off the street), which probably supports them setting individual transformers closer to the house(s).

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen, much less been inside, a 12,000 sq.ft. private home. I have enough trouble keeping my one bathroom home clean. :)

 

[Ashful]

lol... I suspect they're not cleaning themselves. Heck, they have a work crew just to put up their Xmas lights.

 

[jharkin]

That got me to wondering - Joful are these figures the sq ft of living space or the total including basements garages, shops and outbuildings... I know you mentioned a figure above and stated that included the footage of your workshop.


Im just thinking because these really huge numbers might not be so ridiculous if they are including basements and attics and such in the calculation. My little 1400ft2 house would be close to 3,000 if you include the basement, attic and garage in the calculation. And this place is tiny.

 

[Ashful]

The 12,400 across the street is off his tax assessment, never looked at what was included. The house is the size of a hotel, with at least 6 garages, but that's as much as I know.

In my case, the number I'm quoting depends on what we're discussing. Heated house space, not including unfinished portions of basement and attic, is 6660 sq ft. That includes the 625 sq ft heated and attached garage. I'm also now heating 1200 sq ft of our 1500 sq ft carriage house, so I'll sometimes quote 7200 or 7800 sq ft when we're talking about heating costs, depending on whether I'm figuring on heating the garage.

Then there's the whole issue of gross vs net sq footage. We had a discrepancy of 1800 sq ft between the realtor (low) and bank appraiser (high), when we purchased. So, I really only figure on the first digit being really correct, the rest debatable.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

When we went from 100 to 200 Amp circuit panel, the meter was the same but we had to upgrade the panel, meter socket and wires up the side of the house to the feed wires from the electric company. It cost us $3,000.00 for the interlock 50 circuit panel and new generator outlet installed outside of the garage.
See pics
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...box-in-new-circuit-panel.137937/#post-1852576

We now have all but 3 slots filled in our new 200 amp panel and I had current meters installed to monitor the draw on each leg. It is surprising how little the draw is most of the time.
Therefore I suggest you have an electrician put his meter on the panel to monitor the voltage and current draw.
This would prove If you are not drawing much current most of the time like many of us and your voltage is not stable causing the lights to dim, then I suggest the electric company is at fault and are not supplying the proper feed to your house. A few years ago the electric company put in a new transformer on a pole 5 feet higher to meet new guidelines and we got new TRIPLEX wires from the transformer to our home at the electric company's expense.