I generally dont make sweeping statements. I have read a lot about the issue and also have read some studies of the chestnut blight impact many years ago. As you are no doubt aware, there arent a lot of chestnuts left and they used to be the predominant hardwood in the Appalachians. If you have read about the damage that another beetle is doing out in the western US and Canada, very large patches of landscape are dead. Sure the landscape will come back eventually just like after a volcano, but to most folks they wont see the recovery. The economically recoverable wood will possibly get harvested, but areas like the adirondack wilderness areas will get decimated and recovery of any wood is doubtfull. Wait a few years until the forests are standing dead and then forest fires will raise even more havoc.
Cutting down thousands of ash trees,
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Gasifier
Minister of Fire
Hey Peak. Do you know if the bugs will attack the wood they like if it is cut down, bucked up, split and stacked for firewood? The reason I ask is I have access to 80 acres of trees and I am concerned that the EAB will be here sooner or later. The acreage has mostly white pine, but a goood bit of white Ash. So I am wondering if I cut a good bit of the Ash and get it c/s/s for my firewood, will the bugs just attack the firewood anyway? Thanks. And if anyone else knows, chime in.
Ehouse said:
If people knew what happened to the American chestnut, and what's happening to the Ash right now, you would know enough not to consider this a "chicken little" approach. Foresters and entomologists who know more about this stuff than anyone else on this board say that this is the best way to stop the spread. If you got a better approach, lets hear it.
LIfirewoodreview said:
Greed? Please explain. Stupidity? Are you saying you know more than the foresters and entomologists do?
Exactly how well did "mother nature" respond to the chestnut blight? Let's see...formerly the predominant species of the eastern hardwood forest is now almost extinct. If it wasn't for genetic engineering there would be no hope for it. Yeah, sounds like "mother nature" works really well.
I know I'm being too hard on you guys, but come on...right now this is the only solution we have to this problem, and YES it is serious.
Gasifier
Minister of Fire
I think the reason so many of us have a problem with what they are doing is the waste of all the wood. To not let anyone do anything with it, boards, firewood, anything. Are these trees they are cutting already infected or being cut to try to stop the spread. Mother nature may not solve the problem the way you are thinking of it. In the short term. But mother nature has been working for a long time. We just tend to think of everything short term. It is a terrible loss from the bugs. It will be a terrible loss from the bugs in the future. I guess anything they can try is better than nothing. What a shame.
"They are currently cutting trees that are infested with the beast (5,000 or so) then they hope to move on and cut down every potential host tree within 1/4 mile of each infested tree. This could amount to 50,000+ trees being cut and chipped with about 45,000 of them just being for preventative measures."
As of June 29, 2,011 the ALB has caused the destruction of 72,000 hardwood trees in the USA. (From the USDA national agricultural library). You're projecting the cutting, chipping and stump grinding, (also necessary according to the literature), of 50,000 trees in the vicinity of EACH INFECTED TREE! If this were carried out, (which it won't be; the expense would be mind boggling,) it would place humans ahead of the ALB on the list of destroyers of American hardwoods by several orders of magnitude.
"I generally dont make sweeping statements. I have read a lot about the issue and also have read some studies of the chestnut blight impact many years ago. As you are no doubt aware, there arent a lot of chestnuts left and they used to be the predominant hardwood in the Appalachians. If you have read about the damage that another beetle is doing out in the western US and Canada, very large patches of landscape are dead. Sure the landscape will come back eventually just like after a volcano, but to most folks they wont see the recovery. The economically recoverable wood will possibly get harvested, but areas like the adirondack wilderness areas will get decimated and recovery of any wood is doubtfull. Wait a few years until the forests are standing dead and then forest fires will raise even more havoc."
Your last sentence contradicts the first.
"If people knew what happened to the American chestnut, and what’s happening to the Ash right now, you would know enough not to consider this a “chicken little†approach."
And the Beech and the Elm and the Buffalo. Of all the invasive species I can think of that man has tried to "eradicate" with this hubristic all or nothing approach, not a bloody one has disappeared. We're surrounded by 'em. I'm not saying there is no problem or that it's minor but that this eradication fixation never has and never will work unless you can kill every last bug, egg and grub and that is why we get ludicrous proposals like cut down all the trees to save them. We are losing the battles with these things because we have unrealistic strategies and we wring our hands and say "Oh well, we did our best" and salivate over the next grant or stipend.
"Foresters and entomologists who know more about this stuff than anyone else on this board say that this is the best way to stop the spread."
That's a crock. People aren't stupid anymore. And if they want to know something they can find out about it and challenge supposed "experts"
"If you got a better approach, lets hear it."
Fair enough. Just a couple Google clicks gives me info about Imidacloprid, an injectable insecticide shown to be effective against ALB at all stages of its development. So, we're not going to inject all the hardwood trees in North America, but target say, a few healthy ones near outbreaks, maybe one of every hundred trees in a given stand. We're gonna chop, flop and grind any infected trees we find. We're gonna maintain the non transport regs from infested areas and we're gonna educate woodlot owners to spot and report; maybe even require this for all woodlots above a certain size; maybe an annual report on all potential pests. Some will bristle at this but it beats the Gummint chainsaw gangs sweeping through your property. The goal is mitigation and control of the problem, not unachievable eradication. Now we have time for developing other weapons such as parasites or planted sterile males or whatever and we have inoculated seed trees scattered throughout our forests eh?
"Exactly how well did “mother nature†respond to the chestnut blight? Let’s see…formerly the predominant species of the eastern hardwood forest is now almost extinct. If it wasn’t for genetic engineering there would be no hope for it. Yeah, sounds like “mother nature†works really well"
Nah. My woods are full of Chestnut sprouts and some of them get quite large. I was watching one particular tree for several years. It got to be about 12" in diameter before it got the blight. It was producing burrs heavily but they were always sterile, I believe Chestnut has male and female trees. Then one spring there were no leaves and the bark fell off the top branches. I cut it and had it bandsawn. I still have the boards stacked under cover. No genetic engineering needed, they'll recover in their own time.
I answered your challenge for a better solution, but i'm sure it can be improved upon, so mine to you is contribute to make it better.
Ehouse
As of June 29, 2,011 the ALB has caused the destruction of 72,000 hardwood trees in the USA. (From the USDA national agricultural library). You're projecting the cutting, chipping and stump grinding, (also necessary according to the literature), of 50,000 trees in the vicinity of EACH INFECTED TREE! If this were carried out, (which it won't be; the expense would be mind boggling,) it would place humans ahead of the ALB on the list of destroyers of American hardwoods by several orders of magnitude.
"I generally dont make sweeping statements. I have read a lot about the issue and also have read some studies of the chestnut blight impact many years ago. As you are no doubt aware, there arent a lot of chestnuts left and they used to be the predominant hardwood in the Appalachians. If you have read about the damage that another beetle is doing out in the western US and Canada, very large patches of landscape are dead. Sure the landscape will come back eventually just like after a volcano, but to most folks they wont see the recovery. The economically recoverable wood will possibly get harvested, but areas like the adirondack wilderness areas will get decimated and recovery of any wood is doubtfull. Wait a few years until the forests are standing dead and then forest fires will raise even more havoc."
Your last sentence contradicts the first.
"If people knew what happened to the American chestnut, and what’s happening to the Ash right now, you would know enough not to consider this a “chicken little†approach."
And the Beech and the Elm and the Buffalo. Of all the invasive species I can think of that man has tried to "eradicate" with this hubristic all or nothing approach, not a bloody one has disappeared. We're surrounded by 'em. I'm not saying there is no problem or that it's minor but that this eradication fixation never has and never will work unless you can kill every last bug, egg and grub and that is why we get ludicrous proposals like cut down all the trees to save them. We are losing the battles with these things because we have unrealistic strategies and we wring our hands and say "Oh well, we did our best" and salivate over the next grant or stipend.
"Foresters and entomologists who know more about this stuff than anyone else on this board say that this is the best way to stop the spread."
That's a crock. People aren't stupid anymore. And if they want to know something they can find out about it and challenge supposed "experts"
"If you got a better approach, lets hear it."
Fair enough. Just a couple Google clicks gives me info about Imidacloprid, an injectable insecticide shown to be effective against ALB at all stages of its development. So, we're not going to inject all the hardwood trees in North America, but target say, a few healthy ones near outbreaks, maybe one of every hundred trees in a given stand. We're gonna chop, flop and grind any infected trees we find. We're gonna maintain the non transport regs from infested areas and we're gonna educate woodlot owners to spot and report; maybe even require this for all woodlots above a certain size; maybe an annual report on all potential pests. Some will bristle at this but it beats the Gummint chainsaw gangs sweeping through your property. The goal is mitigation and control of the problem, not unachievable eradication. Now we have time for developing other weapons such as parasites or planted sterile males or whatever and we have inoculated seed trees scattered throughout our forests eh?
"Exactly how well did “mother nature†respond to the chestnut blight? Let’s see…formerly the predominant species of the eastern hardwood forest is now almost extinct. If it wasn’t for genetic engineering there would be no hope for it. Yeah, sounds like “mother nature†works really well"
Nah. My woods are full of Chestnut sprouts and some of them get quite large. I was watching one particular tree for several years. It got to be about 12" in diameter before it got the blight. It was producing burrs heavily but they were always sterile, I believe Chestnut has male and female trees. Then one spring there were no leaves and the bark fell off the top branches. I cut it and had it bandsawn. I still have the boards stacked under cover. No genetic engineering needed, they'll recover in their own time.
I answered your challenge for a better solution, but i'm sure it can be improved upon, so mine to you is contribute to make it better.
Ehouse
chinkapin_oak said:
If there were, for argument's sake, 1,000,000 chestnut trees and 1000 survived because of a genetic variant that gave them resistance, that's mother nature at work. Stop thinking on a 5-year timescale and think decades. You may not see the result in your lifetime, but the chestnut trees that survived have an advantage, and will eventually multiply, and be a stronger species. Yes, we are stupid to think we can do a better job than mother nature at selecting which species should stick around. If a species is too weak to survive a threat, even if that threat was introduced into their environment by us, then so be it. 99.9% of all species that ever lived are extinct for a reason. Are you really going to argue with a couple billion years of evolution? The only reason we're here is natural selection...I like to think mother nature did a pretty good job!
As far as the greed comment, I was only referring to a prior post stating that destroying these trees would help prevent this "threat to the timber industry." I hope that's not the reason this is being done.
Ehouse said:
Talk about a contradiction!
It's been a hundred years.
The behavior you describe is unchanged as far as chestnuts go.
Chestnut may come back, but it sure doesn't seem likely.
I don't think anyone answered your question. I'm not positive, but I don't believe the EAB will attacked split and stacked wood. Maybe when it is very freshly cut. But, what difference does it make? If it does, the wood will still be very burnable. The EAB just eats the thin layer directly under the bark. And yes, the EAB will in fact be there sooner of later. There really is no stopping this one. It is too late.
As for the ALB, cut and chip as much as possible! How can anyone complain about "wasting wood" when the absolute destruction of Americas hardwood forests is a very real possibility? If this thing gets loose, how much wood will be wasted then? Sure, eventually, resistant trees will multiply and the forests will be regenerated. The problem is, since this is an evasive species, it will probably take hundreds of years. Spend the money, chip the wood, and do everything possible to eliminate this pest. If we fail, we better be able to say we did everything in our power to stop it, because not stopping is going to have an enormous effect on the entire country.
No one would want to take a chance on the ALB if they have seen the destruction caused by the EAB in Michigan. And, that is only the ash.
My understanding is that EAB attacks live trees only. The larva go after the inner bark for nutirents and kills the tree by disrupting the flow of nutrients in the tree, rapidly killing it. I would compare it to girdling the tree. I expect once the tree is dead there is nothing for the larva to feast on. Once the wood is cut down and split, I dont see the critters doing any more damage as whatever nutrients there were in the bark is no longer present . Of course you still need to quarantine the wood where you are planning to burn it. The problem with EAB is that it spreads rapidly by flying away in the wind so there is no chance of stopping it. The reason for the quarantine appears to be a management issue, its a heck of a lot easier to enforce a ban than to make a case by case basis and possibly miss a recently cut branch that still has larva in from being transported.
ALB's dont spread as quickly, so thats why there is some hope that it can be slowed down significantly by cutting surrounding trees. I believe the treatment for the southern pine bark beetle used to be cut all the trees within a 50 foot radius and the infestation would die out.
ALB's dont spread as quickly, so thats why there is some hope that it can be slowed down significantly by cutting surrounding trees. I believe the treatment for the southern pine bark beetle used to be cut all the trees within a 50 foot radius and the infestation would die out.
I have a friend with USDA who says there is talk within the agency of basically giving up on EAB, that it's basically so far out of the bag that there's no stopping it at this point. ALB is much worse in that it's less picky about which trees it attacks, but as others have said, it tends to spread more slowly.
Just a sorry situation all around with these unwelcome Asian imports
Just a sorry situation all around with these unwelcome Asian imports
Ehouse said:
You misunderstand. Cutting down potential host trees within 1/4 mile of each infested tree will result in the loss of about 50,000 trees (best estimate so far) TOTAL. Not 50,000 trees around each infested tree.
There is the potential for significantly more than that given that they have a low level of confidence that their surveys are any more than 70% accurate and their survey area is rather small so far.
The expense is huge right now. If they carry out their plan they will spend somewhere in the region of $25 million to cut down those 50,000 trees. Treatment with the chemicals is significantly lower cost but the effectiveness is still questionable in their mind.
As far as firewood, the beetle has not been shown to attack wood already split into firewood. However, it will not die if an infested tree is cut down, bucked and split. The larvae will continue to live and will emerge in the mid-summer to find a host tree to lay eggs in. I plan to cut a number of trees this year on my property. Anything noted with a possible infestation will be reported then burned in the fire pit after the have a look at it.
the cut wood must be destroyed asap in place,if you move it,you transfer the bugs with it...pretty simple
Gasifier
Minister of Fire
the cut wood must be destroyed asap in place,if you move it,you transfer the bugs with it…pretty simple
I hear you on that man. And I understand that. I guess I did not explain that part. I do not plan on moving it. The bugs are not here, yet. I have access to 80 acres that is all around my house. It is my wood supply, for a while anyway. Since the bugs are not here, yet, what I plan on doing is cutting as much of the Ash as I can get to over the next few years before the bugs get here and c/s/s it for my firewood. As long as I stack it up on pallettes and cover just the top, it will last for a long time. I have plenty of room, plenty of sun and even a little wind every now and then. So I am looking at getting good use out of the Ash. The property is probably, oh, 80-85% Pine. The rest is almost all Ash and a little Elm.
I hear you on that man. And I understand that. I guess I did not explain that part. I do not plan on moving it. The bugs are not here, yet. I have access to 80 acres that is all around my house. It is my wood supply, for a while anyway. Since the bugs are not here, yet, what I plan on doing is cutting as much of the Ash as I can get to over the next few years before the bugs get here and c/s/s it for my firewood. As long as I stack it up on pallettes and cover just the top, it will last for a long time. I have plenty of room, plenty of sun and even a little wind every now and then. So I am looking at getting good use out of the Ash. The property is probably, oh, 80-85% Pine. The rest is almost all Ash and a little Elm.
read in the ottawa sun just this am,the city of ottawa has 75000 ash trees,and the harvest has started,all are projected to be cut eab is the culprit
Gasifier
Minister of Fire
EAB won't infest a dead tree or a tree with a dry cambium layer (under the bark). The larvae feed on that layer and if it is dry they won't live there. So, your cut firewood should be okay. However, if the larvae is present in the cut firewood, they can live until the cambium layer dries completely. That's why moving firewood out of an area of infestation into an area where the insect isn't present can be a way to spread it. The larvae develops into an adult and emerges from the cut wood the next season. So, cutting your ash trees and leaving the wood on your own property won't contribute to the spread.
ALB will feed on the heartwood and not just in the cambium layer. Their exit holes can be fairly large (a little under the size of a dime). They will usually be seen in the upper level of the canopy first, so a pair of binoculars can be useful in trying to spot them. ALB is a very nasty infestation that we don't want.
Yes, the USDA is cutting the EAB budget dramatically, but I don't believe the control effort was going very well anyway. There is still hope for biological control and that effort will continue to be funded for some time.
ALB will feed on the heartwood and not just in the cambium layer. Their exit holes can be fairly large (a little under the size of a dime). They will usually be seen in the upper level of the canopy first, so a pair of binoculars can be useful in trying to spot them. ALB is a very nasty infestation that we don't want.
Yes, the USDA is cutting the EAB budget dramatically, but I don't believe the control effort was going very well anyway. There is still hope for biological control and that effort will continue to be funded for some time.
Gasifier
Minister of Fire
Thanks for the information gentlemen. I have a short vacation coming up in a few weeks, I think I will be cutting the Ash pretty hard.
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