Curses ... foiled again!

[Gark]

Finally broke down and got a moisture meter. Two stacks of oak cut, split and stacked (sunny windy spot) for 2 years were to be used for the overnight burns. The larger splits still show 35 pct. MC! Seems that the seasoning time for oak should be changed from "two years" to "almost forever". How can they be still at 35 percent?? Luckily, the rest of this year's daytime stuff (soft maple, ash and cherry) all measure at 20% MC. Looks like another year of frequent roof visits with a poly brush and creosote cuss words. Oak can be a blessing and a curse too.

 

[kabbott]

Been down that road... I don't believe my meter. Some oak seems to dry in a year, some to never dry. I have burned some that was read 28% and it seemed to
burn fine. I guess the only way to really know is to weigh it.

 

[shawng111]

As my son and I were bring up the wood from the stack to our woodshed today some pieces were really not ready and it's been down for three years now, so I threw them back on the stack for next year (hopefully). I sometimes hate to love oak

 

[wood-fan-atic]

Really?! Where are you drying it? The oak I c/s/s last Jan/Feb into 20" and 14" pcs.( 3-5" thick) and dried in 6' high racks along my fence and around my toolshed are now @ about 19-23% in the heart of the splits. They've been covered from direct rain (top only) and some dont really get too much sun or wind (the stacks behind the shed :sick: ). I guess its because the summer has been sooooo dang hot ( 90 °F +).

 

[oldspark]

I dont understand it either, never had a problem, are you stacking in single rows?

 

[geoffm24]

This calls into question a "rule of thumb". Many of the old time burners sware by seasoning for 2 years and then not having to worry about whether or not their wood is dry. Many also then claim they do not need a moisture meter.

Common sense tells us that 2009 in New England was VERY different then 2010 in New England. 2009 was record cold and record rain fall. 2010 was record heat and record low rainfal and very windy. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know these two very different weather patterns will lead to very different MC in wood.

All "seasons" are not the same. If wood normally prefers 2 "average" years it could require 3 wet and cold years or 1 to 1 1/2 hot and dry years.

Paying attension to the weather and using a moisture meter is a much more accurate way of judging the drying process.

 

[wood-fan-atic]

I concur. I just dont get the 'old timers' who resist technology. Im not "too proud" to own/use a moisture meter. Any tool I can have at my disposal (especially one as cheap as a MM) that can assist me in producing a superior fuel to warm my family, I see as an asset. I have learned so much about our hobby/passion from this little wonder. It is NOT the 'end all-do all' tool to live by, but it really can help people(especially greenhorns) understand to concepts and techniques of seasoning.

 

[oldspark]

This calls into question a "rule of thumb". Many of the old time burners sware by seasoning for 2 years and then not having to worry about whether or not their wood is dry. Many also then claim they do not need a moisture meter.

Common sense tells us that 2009 in New England was VERY different then 2010 in New England. 2009 was record cold and record rain fall. 2010 was record heat and record low rainfal and very windy. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know these two very different weather patterns will lead to very different MC in wood.

All "seasons" are not the same. If wood normally prefers 2 "average" years it could require 3 wet and cold years or 1 to 1 1/2 hot and dry years.

Paying attension to the weather and using a moisture meter is a much more accurate way of judging the drying process.

"Common sense" would also tell us that in over 30 years includes many different types of summers which by the way is a record rainfall for 2010, I had oak off the chart of MM (45%) this spring and the small splitts were at 18 to 20 % about a month ago with the big splitts at 35% so my first post stands I do not understand why it is so green at this point, if you need the wood to dry quicker you have to have smaller splitts, the bigger splitts take the two summers.

 

[Gark]

Pic shows how it was stacked for drying. The oak hadn't been covered yet for the picture. I think you's right about the wet cold summer 2009. The oak in question got so much sun & wind that the ends are black and some bark is falling off. Still most large splits 5-6" are 34% MC. Pretty stacks, though, huh? (EDIT) smaller pic, I can drive between these stacks and between the trees and upper stacks. Lotsa wind here.

 

[oldspark]

I concur. I just dont get the 'old timers' who resist technology. Im not "too proud" to own/use a moisture meter. Any tool I can have at my disposal (especially one as cheap as a MM) that can assist me in producing a superior fuel to warm my family, I see as an asset. I have learned so much about our hobby/passion from this little wonder. It is NOT the 'end all-do all' tool to live by, but it really can help people(especially greenhorns) understand to concepts and techniques of seasoning.

I have a MM and use it a lot just to post my results for the people who are willing to listen.

 

[oldspark]

I dont know why but the assumption that us old timers do not know what we are doing and resist technology by people who are new to wood burning is bugging me more than usual this morning! :long:

 

[wood-fan-atic]

Have a cup 'o joe and feel the love, Sparky. No one is suggesting that old timers dont know what their doing( I ,myself , have been heating with wood since Ive been in the womb, and I love the added knowledge from the MM). I think its more about resistance to change, than anything else. Ive come across some 'old-timers' who ridicule the MM, while in the same breath swearing that wet oak is 'better' than dry oak for overnite burns, and that ash is great to burn green. :shut: These are probably the same people that think that 'new microwave thing' in the kitchen will give you cancer and that computers are useless paperweights. I believe intelligence is based on quantative knowledge and experience- not simply on chronological age. Wouldnt you agree?

 

[wood-fan-atic]

Oh,and- those are some BEAUTIFUL STACKS, Gark! ;-P

 

[Gark]

The MM agrees with the 'feel' of the splits. While lifting them, the still-moist sticks seem heavier. Call it intuition or my brain's built-in subconscious density calculator (without knowing much math), I just know. The not-yet-seasoned splits don't sound like a bowling pin when tossed onto concrete floor, either. Gonna leave the last half of the oak in question out another year. Will mix the 34% oak already stored in a 4-to-1 (4 dry one wet) combo in the stove loads.

 

[burntime]

They do not look seasoned. I guess it might be your wet summer. My stacks do not get quite as much sun and a year later they are ready...

 

[Battenkiller]

I have a MM and use it a lot just to post my results for the people who are willing to listen.

I post my results just to hear myself talk. Waiting to find people willing to listen is an exercise in futility IMHO.

OS, since you are an electrician you will have an easy time accepting this. Your MM can't give really accurate results much beyond 30% MC, regardless of how high it reads. Resistance-type moisture meters are really only reading the amount of resistance to electrical flow in your wood. They work OK with measuring the ohms in wood with water bound only to the cellular structure, but all wood that is over 30% MC has "free water" in it as well, and this dramatically skews the readings because of the small amount of electrolytes in the sap. The higher the free water, the easier it is for the electricity to go through and the lower the resistance. In fact, the dang things are really only accurate at moisture levels below which we usually burn at (<15%).

Below is a species correction table that I downloaded off the Delmhorst web site. It is for use with their older professional meters that don't have these corrections programed into them.

Notice that, even for a professional use, they don't both to give correction figures above 24% MC. You can also see that, even with a professional meter, you will get reading that vary considerably from the true MC depending on the species. For example, a reading of 24% on the meter correlates to an actual MC of 28% in southern yellow pine, but only 19% in American elm. So a guy with elm at 24% on the meter really has wood that is at an ideal of about 19%, and the pine-burning dude who gets a reading of 24% and thinks his wood is about ready is really sitting on a bunch of wood at 28% MC. The meters are calibrated for Doug fir, so you can see there is no correction needed for that wood. Thankfully for burners of red oak, it needs no correction either.

Above 24% MC, expect there to be an increasingly greater difference between species, and increasingly inaccurate readings in general. That's why I think folks are unnecessarily worrying themselves with their meters. They are useful tools, but they don't tell the whole tale.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

I have a MM and use it a lot just to post my results for the people who are willing to listen.

I post my results just to hear myself talk. Waiting to find people willing to listen is an exercise in futility IMHO.

OS, since you are an electrician you will have an easy time accepting this. Your MM can't give really accurate results much beyond 30% MC, regardless of how high it reads. Resistance-type moisture meters are really only reading the amount of resistance to electrical flow in your wood. They work OK with measuring the ohms in wood with water bound only to the cellular structure, but all wood that is over 30% MC has "free water" in it as well, and this dramatically skews the readings because of the small amount of electrolytes in the sap. The higher the free water, the easier it is for the electricity to go through and the lower the resistance. In fact, the dang things are really only accurate at moisture levels below which we usually burn at (<15%).

Below is a species correction table that I downloaded off the Delmhorst web site. It is for use with their older professional meters that don't have these corrections programed into them.

Notice that, even for a professional use, they don't both to give correction figures above 24% MC. You can also see that, even with a professional meter, you will get reading that vary considerably from the true MC depending on the species. For example, a reading of 24% on the meter correlates to an actual MC of 28% in southern yellow pine, but only 19% in American elm. So a guy with elm at 24% on the meter really has wood that is at an ideal of about 19%, and the pine-burning dude who gets a reading of 24% and thinks his wood is about ready is really sitting on a bunch of wood at 28% MC. The meters are calibrated for Doug fir, so you can see there is no correction needed for that wood. Thankfully for burners of red oak, it needs no correction either.

Above 24% MC, expect there to be an increasingly greater difference between species, and increasingly inaccurate readings in general. That's why I think folks are unnecessarily worrying themselves with their meters. They are useful tools, but they don't tell the whole tale.

I'm sorry, did you say something??? ;-P

 

[Backwoods Savage]

This calls into question a "rule of thumb". Many of the old time burners sware by seasoning for 2 years and then not having to worry about whether or not their wood is dry. Many also then claim they do not need a moisture meter.

Common sense tells us that 2009 in New England was VERY different then 2010 in New England. 2009 was record cold and record rain fall. 2010 was record heat and record low rainfal and very windy. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know these two very different weather patterns will lead to very different MC in wood.

All "seasons" are not the same. If wood normally prefers 2 "average" years it could require 3 wet and cold years or 1 to 1 1/2 hot and dry years.

Paying attension to the weather and using a moisture meter is a much more accurate way of judging the drying process.

I concur. I just dont get the ‘old timers’ who resist technology. Im not “too proud” to own/use a moisture meter. Any tool I can have at my disposal (especially one as cheap as a MM) that can assist me in producing a superior fuel to warm my family, I see as an asset. I have learned so much about our hobby/passion from this little wonder. It is NOT the ‘end all-do all’ tool to live by, but it really can help people(especially greenhorns) understand to concepts and techniques of seasoning.

Have you fellows considered that perhaps you may have misunderstood some of the old timers?

Okay, let's say I am an "old timer. " While I fully agree there are many, too many, old timers that are set in their old ways and just do not understand today's stoves and what they require, there are other reasons for having wood seasoning 2 years or longer. There are also reasons why some old timers do not own a moisture meter. Please consider me in that class, thank you.

It is common knowledge on this forum that I have more than a year or two of wood on hand. In fact, at this point we have not started cutting yet as we usually get started with that in December. So how much wood do I have on hand? Enough to keep our bodies warm through the winter of 2015-2016. Why on earth would I need that much wood?

Glad you asked. Quick answer is that I do not need that much wood on hand....but I like it. This serves a couple of purposes.

Purpose 1 is that I will have dry wood to heat my home and no, I do not need a moisture meter to tell me that. I've burned wood long enough that I can pretty well tell when wood is ready to burn or not. But am I against moisture meters? Absolutely not. They are a good tool for the new burners so long as they realize just what that meter tells them and know how to use it properly.

Purpose 2 is simply that having more than a year or two in wood makes certain that our wood will be ready to burn.

Purpose 3 is that I am an old timer and I've watched other old timers and it seems as the body ages, there are times when it puts one in a position where he can not get out to gather the winter's wood or split it after he gathers it. If something bad happens to me, be it injury or sickness, I do not have to rely on others for my winter's wood supply as I already have plenty, thank you.

Purpose 4. Unfortunately most years we find some other folks who are not quite as blessed as we have been and we are in a position to help. For example, the last 3 years or so we have been fortunate to be able to help 3 different families to keep their homes warm through the winter. Nuff said there.


Rather than putting down some old timers and rather than puffing up because you have a moisture meter or making the statements like watching the weather and using the MM is a much more accurate way of judging, perhaps it is time to quit that silly talk. I could get on this forum and put down a lot of the folks who come on and ask some questions. I've heard the thing about, "That's a stupid thing to ask or think." Or "Why on earth would any dimwit do that?" That sort of thing is as silly as it gets. I really have no need of attempting to put down anyone and I come on this forum not to brag nor put anyone down. I come on this forum simply to see if I can help someone else. That is why I hate seeing some of these posts where they are attempting to put down other folks constantly. Yes, I freely admit there are times when I chime in for kicks and even get in some jabs to others (like Jake, for instance), but my main purpose is to help. So if you don't mind having this old timer around a little longer, even if I do not own a MM, then please accept what I do for what it is.

 

[PapaDave]

Dennis, you already know this, but good post.
Gark, maybe try a split or two of that high m/c reading oak in the fire to see what it does.
You'll know real quick if it's dry, or not.

 

[wood-fan-atic]

Not to beat a dead horse, here.......but....- I dont think anyone meant any ill will here,Savage. As you've stated, the MM is a useful tool- but not the Holy Grail.And as we know, whether or not its 'right' or 'wrong' to burn wood seasoned only one year- the fact is that not everyone is afforded the luxury of free access to unlimited forests and acres of land on which to store it. Some good folk MUST contend with limited space and work diligently to season what they CAN store in time for the burning season. I have read many of your posts and they are indeed very helpful......I think you just might have mis-read the tone. Again..... keep up the good work. ;-P

 

[krex1010]

Pic shows how it was stacked for drying. The oak hadn't been covered yet for the picture. I think you's right about the wet cold summer 2009. The oak in question got so much sun & wind that the ends are black and some bark is falling off. Still most large splits 5-6" are 34% MC. Pretty stacks, though, huh? (EDIT) smaller pic, I can drive between these stacks and between the trees and upper stacks. Lotsa wind here.

that pic looks like one of those wireless phone commercials, cingular i think, the ones that show the bars in acending order.

 

[Tony H]

The way the wood is laid out it certainly appears it would be seasoned more than the meter shows . I would be tempted to split one or two and throw them on the fire and observe to see how it burns.
If its still a little to wet for burning maybe split some of it smaller and see how much more it dries.

 

[Corriewf]

Those meters are a piece of crap similar to the btu charts... Ever notice how each chart has a different btu rating for each wood type. Is the bark falling off? Is the ends cracked up? Does it seem pretty light compared to the first time you stacked it? It's ready to burn bro. Burning wood is not that complicated. Do moisture measures help? I dunno... Seems like some of you prefer to part with some of that money you saved heating with wood on gimmicks like these. I guess if it takes a mm to see the wood is seasoned more power to ya. I won't be buying.

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

Not an old timer . . . well I feel old sometimes . . . but I'm only 40 . . . but I like new toys . . . I mean technology . . . most of the time . . . if I didn't I wouldn't have an EPA stove . . . I would still be burning with an Ashley or Shenandoah.

Moisture meters . . . don't have one, never will . . . not because I don't believe in them . . . mainly because 1) by staying ahead three years I know my wood is good to go and 2) I'm too cheap to buy one since I don't envision using it very often. That said . . . I think they are a useful tool.

Backwoods . . . I realize our friendly banter is just that . . . friendly . . . even if you have the wrong ideas about splitting wood.

Gark . . . love the stacks . . . very nice looking.

Wood Fan A Tic . . . You're new here so you should know . . . microwaves don't cause cancer . . . burning pine causes cancer.

 

[oldspark]

I as an "old timer" will not be refering to some people as whipper snappers! :cheese: