CT Installer Help

[REFire]

henfruit, that is a dump zone above the boiler. If power goes out the automag valve opens and gets rid of heat if boiler is burning. HX works great on the return side, whole system works great. Also have over heat zone but not hooked up. Boiler has DHW coil which can cool down over heat if necessary, just need somebody to soak in the hot tub or take a long shower, pumps out a lot of hot water.

 

[REFire]

Great installation, looks like you added heat to your garage, nice!

G57 ,no heat in garage that is just a dump zone above boiler if the power goes out,.

 

[GS7]

G57 ,no heat in garage that is just a dump zone above boiler if the power goes out,.

gotcha that makes sense

 

[Pologuy9906]

Pologuy, are you thinking of doing any work yourself? I'm in Bethel. Did my own install and could show what I did.

I need a plumber to do the install for insurance reasons. Sad there's no one in the area. I had a few people come out and state they will get back to me with a quote. No quote yet.

 

[Pologuy9906]

Pologuy
call BRIA PLUMBING 203-395-5030 They did a super clean install for me. If interested,call me and take a look. Im in fairfield.
Luke 203-610-7667

Thanks for the information. I have no intentions on doing the work. Im willing to assist in way that I can. My insurance company stated they want to see permits. I really want to get this done ASAP. Sad there's no one in Fairfield county

 

[__dan]

Thanks for the information. I have no intentions on doing the work. Im willing to assist in way that I can. My insurance company stated they want to see permits. I really want to get this done ASAP. Sad there's no one in Fairfield county

Hey Polo, I know we talked in the threads but I don't recall the details.

Honestly, the experience you are conveying was predictable, in my opinion as someone who has had a trade contractor's license since 1989 and bid construction for 20 years as a contractor.

Without writing a dissertation on why this is so, I will try to be brief and helpful. The problem basically is contractor's have their own standardized solutions to offer the customer that they do in volume. Each contractor will have a different variation, different boiler brand, different control and loading strategy, and have to face the market demand, which is typically for the lowest upfront installed price. Just quoting a standard gas boiler three times will yield three variations, condensing boiler, non condensing, tankless or indirect tank DHW.

I can tell you that the variations I would choose to build to would add thousands to the installed price. It has always been in my nature to overbuild compared to the market.

My standard recommendation in all construction bid situations like this is for the customer to spend as much time as necessary in design. Once you know what you want and have a tightly detailed plan and spec, you would be ready to go out for bid. If you have an engineered plan, any of the local trade contractors, I'm sure, would be happy to bid and work to your plan.

That would be a sticking point imo, having no buildable prepared drawing, bid documents, and asking local contractors for a design / build in a situation that is rare and unfamiliar to them. If you have an engineered plan prepared for your custom solution, all of the local guys will be able to build it.

You would also be fighting the busy time of the year for heat. People don't want to spend money on heat in the summer. they only open jobs up when it gets cold and they get chilly or turn on the tstat and it doesn't work. It's like asking for A/C in August. All the guys will be busy when the weather gets unbearable but maybe waiting for work to come in when the weather is mild.

That would be my suggestion. Spend the time and money just on a professionally prepared design with a tight spec. If you go for bid with that, I'm sure the local guys would be happy to have the work.

If you have already puchased the boiler, the dealer should be able to help you with either a buildable drawing or the name of an experienced trade contractor.

I see some predictable difficulties and maybe some misconceptions about contractors. I am in Ct with an E1 about two hours travel from you. The problem I see at this time is going out for bid without a plan or drawing that is buildable with a minimum of changes.

The lowest cost job is one that is built right the first time, even if the upfront cost is substantially more. Many customers do not discover this until after the build, or never.

Did you already buy the boiler?

If you can get a professional, buildable, drawing prepared, I think you will be able to get competitive bids from local heating trade contractors. Or as already suggested, keep looking for contractors who have experience with successful wood boiler installations

 

[henfruit]

Dan, If he has plumbing design for the install and a wiring diagram for the system, then why couldn't a plumber work on time and materials? I just had a customer plumb his whole system to storage and wire it and do all the smoke pipe work in about 3 1/2 days total.

 

[Pologuy9906]

Hey Dan,

I have specific specs per the manufactuers manual. That's been given to each person who came out. I honestly think its fear of the unknown. NOONE was interested in exploring something new. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[__dan]

Hey Dan,

I have specific specs per the manufactuers manual. That's been given to each person who came out. I honestly think its fear of the unknown. NOONE was interested in exploring something new. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Is there an online version of the drawing we could take a look at. The only drawings I'm aware of that I would have confidence in their completeness are the Tarm USA drawings. Just the factory manual may leave too much variability in the design, the point where the near boiler piping stops and the load header, control strategy, OAT reset, begins. I'm already guessing that most of the manufacturer's instructions I have seen would yield thousands in changes.

Maybe let the board proofread your design drawing while you hunt for a contractor?

 

[__dan]

Dan, If he has plumbing design for the install and a wiring diagram for the system, then why couldn't a plumber work on time and materials? I just had a customer plumb his whole system to storage and wire it and do all the smoke pipe work in about 3 1/2 days total.

Your customer was in the top 5% of talent and ambition for that kind of work. 3 1/2 days, yikes, I don't know what to say. I am a tortoise.

 

[REFire]

Pologuy,what make of boiler is it that that you are trying to get installed? No where in this thread is there any mention of make or model.

 

[Pologuy9906]

Fuel Flex 60kw with 600 gal of storage. Propane wall unit as the backup system. This will be direct vented outside. The current oil tank and boiler will be removed. This will free up the flue for the wood boiler. Manufactuer has a very detailed picture of what they would like used as far as piping goes. I have 4 zones currently. I will add a fifth. I want pumps for each zone rather than zone valves.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

To my knowledge the FlexFuel is an open system / non pressurized.
The majority of the plumbers have no idea what an open system is
This answers why you did not get any estimates so far.
Post the picture from the manual and the members of this forum will weigh in on how complete and usable it is, or just generic

 

[Pologuy9906]

http://www.woodstoves.net/documents/Wood-Master/7994-300_Flex_Fuel_Manual_Rev13-4_email.pdf

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Do you have all these parts & pieces, the open tank?
This scares plumbers. It's like a red flag.
Did you read the warranty: "Failure to send in a water sample annually will void the warranty"
This is related to the open system.

As mentioned before by another member, I also recommend you make your own schematic specific to your situation ! !

 

[Pologuy9906]

Yes I'm aware of the requirements. I did a lot of homework and after doing the due diligence, this the best choice for my family and I. I have a wife who will also be involved in the day to day usage of the unit.

 

[Pologuy9906]

I'll try to figure out how to draw out the schematics for my situation. I just assumed the installer would look at the manual and tie into my system. The manual is pretty specific about the way they want it hooked up.

Any suggestions on creating the schematics? Plumbing is not my area of expertise

 

[maple1]

Was reading the manual also. It calls for an annual or semi-annual 'blowdown' to be performed. What is a 'blowdown'?

I wouldn't let the fact that it is open stop me if it was what I wanted. There a quite a few guys on here running open boilers - Empyre Elites & Garns are both open. There is also a diagram in my manual if you wanted to install a Varm as an open boiler - although not as detailed as the one in the Flex Fuel manual. Someone on here must have some drawings that could be helpful in your install. I didn't re-read the thread - did you ask your dealer for help on that? Having no local knowledge to turn to can be a big drawback & very frustrating - nobody around here had any clue to what I was doing when I did mine. Installers or suppliers. I was totally on my own. The main supplier I used here didn't even know what an Alpha pump was.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

I would start with making a piping diagram of what you currently have with your old oil boiler.

The FF60 will heat the 600 gal storage, the storage will take the function of the old oil boiler

Do you have more specifics on the 600 gallon storage tank?

what heat exchanger are you using to separate the open side from closed side (page 12 - TOP schematic) ?

 

[Pologuy9906]

A few pictures of what I currently have

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

See updated schematic
Circulator A and B need to work to getter, and this in function of boiler water temp (anti-condense protection)
Circulator C can only pump when storage is at set minimum temp. No need to pump cold water around.
The gas boiler you talked about should also charge the 600 gallon tank.
You will need to figure out a control logic for this gas boiler that works with the FF60 fire protocol.
200,000 BTU is a big boiler. Your heat exchanger (FPHX) needs to be able to match this heat output!

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Do you need a chimney liner with that wood boiler?

 

[maple1]

Not sure why you should heat storage with a backup heat source? When I hit backup, it only heats my zones - I'd rather re-charge storage with my wood.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Not sure why you should heat storage with a backup heat source? When I hit backup, it only heats my zones - I'd rather re-charge storage with my wood.

Good point. At the other hand it's maybe more efficient then on/off, on/off, on/off, ... .

 

[ewdudley]

Not sure why you should heat storage with a backup heat source? When I hit backup, it only heats my zones - I'd rather re-charge storage with my wood.

Good point. At the other hand it's maybe more efficient then on/off, on/off, on/off, ... .

I don't heat all of storage with my backup boiler, just a half hour's worth so the backup boiler doesn't short cycle. However this did make return protection necessary on the backup boiler.