Cracked Glass on Pellet Stove?

[arnash]

I didn't watch the video because I have dial-up. But I have watch it and another now and don't see anything other than roaring fires that show lack of control of pellet feed rate, but don't seem to present a real danger of fire escaping the burn chamber. If you could give a link to one related to cracked glass, I'd be willing to endure the long loading wait required to watch it.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I didn't watch the video because I have dial-up. But I have watch it and another now and don't see anything other than roaring fires that show lack of control of pellet feed rate, but don't seem to present a real danger of fire escaping the burn chamber. If you could give a link to one related to cracked glass, I'd be willing to endure the long loading wait required to watch it.

That was not a case of lack of control of pellet feed rate, that was a delayed ignition, they are but one result of a dirty pellet stove.

The pellets smolder and char the gases produced fill the firebox, then a spark actually occurs and the gases light off, if you were paying attention you should have noted that the door was actually blown forward and smoke exited around the door.

Am I beginning to get through to you?

Now picture a cracked glass and the same thing taking place, you seem to think that pellet stoves operate normally all of the time, the fact is they don't.

Too many people have them that don't have a clue.

Perhaps you should read a number of the manuals or you can take a chance on your own, but to recommend running the stove in that state to others is in two words, bad advice.

 

[arnash]

My low-def version of the video lacked the detail you described. The problem wasn't something that someone with a manual ignition stove is every going to see. The problem wasn't due to the un-cracked glass, which, if cracked, wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome if the intact glass actually got blown-out. but I'll agree with your concern about unexpected events, but so far my limited experience tells me that, like air travel -during which the landing is the most dangerous part, the most critical phase of using a pellet stove is during the firing-up of the burn pot. I can't image not monitoring it since it is important with manual ignition that the flame not be too small or too large. But once the stove is smoothly operating, the "flash over" phenomenon isn't going to happen -as long as the air flow isn't restricted because of a clogged burn pot which allows the temperature to fall, (causing smoldering and the build-up of gases).
So my view is that in normal operation, a crack in the glass doesn't present a danger, but I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to assume that others don't know of circumstances in which a crack might be a safety issue. But if someone does, it should be shared. The response of silence doesn't convince one that such a possibility exists.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

A large number of manufacturers do share that information by telling the owner of the stove to not operate the stove in that state.

Breckwell, Harman, Inca Metal Cutting (covers a very large number of stoves under a lot of brand names) ... in their manuals.

 

[arnash]

But do they say why? It's the "Why?" that's still a big question mark. It may be simply a matter of legal philosophy in which the advice always is, "better safe than sorry" without giving any facts behind their instruction.

Here's something the Advantage II manual says, "CONTINUOUS OPERATION: When operated correctly,
this appliance cannot be overfired."

That's reassuring. But it also says this,
"DISPOSING OF ASHES: Any ashes removed from the pellet stove must be deposited in a metal container
with a tight-fitting lid. The closed container of ashes should be placed on a noncombustible
floor or on the ground, well away from all combustible materials, outside of the dwelling pending final
disposal. If the ashes are disposed of by burial in soil or otherwise locally dispersed, they should
be retained in the closed container until all cinders have been thoroughly cooled.

Every pellet stove user knows from experience that that instruction was not written for pellet stove ash
but for WOOD stove ash. (My sister learned the lesson the hard way after burning down her home.)

So how can anyone have confidence in the scientific basis of their other safety instructions?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

"“DISPOSING OF ASHES: Any ashes removed from the pellet stove must be deposited in a metal container
with a tight-fitting lid. The closed container of ashes should be placed on a noncombustible
floor or on the ground, well away from all combustible materials, outside of the dwelling pending final
disposal. If the ashes are disposed of by burial in soil or otherwise locally dispersed, they should
be retained in the closed container until all cinders have been thoroughly cooled.

Every pellet stove user knows from experience that that instruction was not written for pellet stove ash
but for WOOD stove ash."

That is absolutely correct, there is no technical difference between WOOD stove ash and Pellet stove ash, it is all WOOD ash, and until everything in the container is completely cool (which can take a very long time ( sometimes measured in increments of several days) as wood ash is a very good insulator) they can kindle a fire.

ETA:

The manuals do not have to say why, they have to provide a warning. People who do not follow what the manual says just because it doesn't say why, are still playing with fire, and acting against their very own well being.

Oh and you never can count on any electrical/mechanical hybrid device to correctly function 100% of the time. That is why there are many safety devices in them. The problems usually come when multiple failures occur and someone gets sloppy.

 

[tjnamtiw]

I can attest to this one, Smokey. Before I put in my pellet stoves, I had wood inserts in my fireplaces. On one occasion, I cleaned out the fireplace, which had been out for a complete day plus a few hours. I dumped the 'cold' ashes over the brick wall between my house and my neighbors (still my land). A few hours later my neighbor calls and tells me his shed is on fire............ Yep, that stupid lesson cost me!

As far as fighting over the cracked glass, why in the H doesn't the OP just replace the friggin glass? Shut it down and wait for the glass to get into stock or insist that the store replace yours with one from a display unit or one in stock. Who can guarantee that during the night the glass won't crack further or collapse into the burn chamber? Well, maybe one person here can............... Why take a chance? Just shut the darn thing down!

 

[arnash]

I agree that a crack in the front glass should prevent one from having the confidence to use the stove while not present, like at night or away from home, but I think the danger is so minute that using it while you're present doesn't pose a risk to one's home, Replacing it, as soon as possible, goes without saying.
But the discussion goes beyond this one particular case, to clarify the various issues in a general sense. Such as, saying that all ash is the same completely misses the point of pellet stoves. They burn with intense combustion due to the "injection" of air, (like an engine from the sixties [wood stove] vs a high efficiency turbo-charged engine of today. Pellet stoves, using premium pellets, leave less than 1% ash, and due to their greatly superior burning efficiency (compared to wood stoves) they require far, far less wood mass to output an equivalent amount of heating. So their volume of ash is a tiny percentage of that of a wood stove. A whole day of pellet burning in my stove yields less than a couple tablespoons of ash! Wood stove ash is always a fairly large volume and it insulates its still hot embers. That's impossible with pellet ash. But on top of its tiny volume of ash, the pellet stove shutdown process includes the blowers running until the whole stove is cooled down, including the ash. By the time you open the door to clean out the ash, it's so cool that you can hold it in your hands! (though I haven't tried it yet).
When reading safety precautions, I find it appears that there are always some warnings that were written by lawyers, and not safety engineers. Sometimes common sense is missing when the lawyers throw-in stuff that is above and beyond real-world dangers just so they can say that they have protected their employer's ass every which way from Tuesday.
I think that about covers the whole issue, unless someone has something else to add.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Hell, if I added anything, you'd never shut up! ''By the time you open the door to clean out the ash, it's so cool that you can hold it in your hands! (though I haven't tried it yet). '' How can you so authoritatively state that when you haven't tried it??? Also, let's see you stick your hand down into the burn pot to clean the holes out when you have the ''blowers running until the whole stove is cooled down''. In actuality, the convection blower only runs until the snap disc opens even though it is still blowing warm air. That's why some of us have put adjustable snap discs on that circuit.

Does anyone have something else to add..................

 

[Czech]

Ah hell, I guess I'll stir it up some. Somewhat OT, but from another site along the same lines. If you had a bad limit switch on your furnace, and you knew it was the problem, would you cheat it to keep the pipes from freezing? Would you leave it cheated and go to work for a day? Maybe we should start a poll...

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

SPRINGFIELD – Ashes from a pellet stove caused a minor fire Sunday morning after a plastic vacuum was used to clean the ashes up.

Firefighters responded to 174 Belvidere St., at 10:23 a.m. Sunday after an old-fashioned vacuum cleaner containing the ashes melted through the floor of an enclosed porch, said fire department spokesman Dennis G. Leger.

Leger said the fire caused $3,000 in damage, but could have been much worse.

“Thankfully this happened during the day and the people in the house noticed the smoke. If it had happened at night after they were sleeping and no one noticed it, there could have been more damage,†he said.

Leger said citizens should remember never to collect pellet ashes in a plastic container.

“Always use a metal shovel and a metal bucket to avoid fires and put the ashes outside,†he said. “Pellet stoves are perfectly safe if you dispose of the ashes properly.â€

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/03/ashes_from_a_pellet_stove_caus.html

GARDNER — Hot coals from a pellet stove dumped outside caused a two-alarm fire late Friday night that caused extensive damage to a home on Woodland Avenue.

Fire Lt. Gregory Lagoy said the fire caused about $40,000 in damage to a converted barn attached to a home at 182 Woodland Ave. It was caused by coals left outside too close to the building, according to Lt. Lagoy.

Firefighters were called to the house at 11:37 p.m. Owners of the property were at home at the time of the fire and were able to get out of the building safely. The fire was contained to the barn section of the home with the main structure sustaining only minor smoke and water damage. Gardner was assisted by the Westminster and Hubbardston fire departments at the fire scene, and Winchendon manned Gardner’s Central Station. All off-duty firefighters were called in to assist with the blaze.

Lt. Lagoy said the fire was brought under control by 12:03 a.m. and the last firefighter left the scene at 1:20 a.m.

http://www.telegram.com/article/20110109/NEWS/101090341/1101/rss01&source=rss

NEWINGTON — Ashes sparked a blaze that ripped through a home on Buena Vista Drive on Wednesday morning, firefighters said.

A neighbor alerted authorities after he saw flames creeping up the side of 139 Buena Vista Drive at 11:37 a.m. The fire, which started under a rear deck, spread to the attic and caused extensive damage to the structure, Newington Fire Chief Chris Schroeder said. No one was home at the time.

A resident apparently dumped ashes from a pellet stove near a garbage can behind the single-story ranch. The ashes came into contact with debris under the deck, Schroeder said.

(broken link removed to http://articles.courant.com/2010-01-14/news/10011412582925_1_schroeder-attic-pellet-stove)

Need more ?

 

[tjnamtiw]

Good ones Smokey! I guess our newcomer can go crawl back under his bed now.

 

[arnash]

I can think of only one explanation for those "hot ash" fires. My Whitfield Advantage I leaves almost no ash after burning for over 24 hours, so if other stoves are comparable, then the only way to get a build-up of lots of hot ash is to have the auger rate set very high, possibly at maximum while the ash from a long burn period has blocked the burn pot holes to the extent that the pellets are blackened and smoldering from lack of sufficient air. So to fix the problem, the owner turns off the stove, impatiently waits for the earliest moment that he can dump and clean the burn pot, but he dumps hot coals (hidden by ash) before they have cooled down -as in a normal shut-down. There's no way that a normal shut-down leaves coals that are still hot enough to cause ignition. I don't say that "authoritatively" since I'm a neophyte, but in everyday experience I'm not standing around waiting to re-light my stove the minute it shuts off, usually it's hours, or overnight. So I haven't yet stuffed my fingers into the burn pot ash immediately after shut-down in order to test my presumption. I'll venture to say that nobody else has either.

It's common sense to say that the ash disposal warnings (written for Wood stoves) does not apply to ash disposal from a Pellet stove after normal shut-down because the burn-pot ash is almost non-existent (volume wish) and what's left is totally free of all combustible material. In other words, there's nothing left that can burn because it's 100% pure ash. And ash can't burn. That's the way pellet stoves work, normally. Of course we're all interested in any cases where the unexpected and unusual happens. I'm thinking of cases or mechanical/electrical oddity, not so much cases of errors of ignorance -like dumping a pot of still hot coals/ash in a flammable location.