Cost of Quadra-Fire Castile vs. Harman XXV Pellet Stoves

[BrotherBart]

What I should have been more clear on in my post was that three grand for just the stove strikes me as obsene. With every product there are Cadillacs and Kias, I know, but I am going to have to go down to the local stove store and see what makes a Harmon worth twice as much as some of the other pellet stoves.

 

[elkimmeg]

BB has a good memory. When the pedal hit the metal last year, harmon like many manufactures, had quality control issues.
So bad, dealers received half painted units. They bought the spray cans to paint them before delivery and installations.
Vital components became short supply blowers, auger motors, computer boards ( this was not just a Harman issue but industry wide) In the scramble to fulfill backorders, alternative suppliers of these components were substituted. Complaints rose blower motors were too noisy strange vibration noises feed rates and setting issues, back puffing.

This is not to say these quality control issues still exist now. Part of the problem for Harman, is that there entire workforce was less than 25 people. Since then, they are in the process of building a state of the arts facility, As much as the Harman quality reputation in the market place, when push came to shove they were on the smaller side. Lot harder to negotiate with suppliers when bidding against Quad Vollume. Same was true with replacement parts. What became the most important factor was the local dealers ability to respond to customer issues. His ability to make the replacement or repairs Dealership service and replacememt parts.
This is what you should be researching./ The first question to a dealer 50 miles away is if you are willing to sell me this unit how willing are you to service and resolve and warranty issues. It is possible the quad dealer has better parts support than Harman.
That was quite apparent last year in crunch time. I know Harry is a harman dealer.

OK there are plenty of stoves available now, that was last year and not an issue now. Dealers get very few service calls in July. ITS 90 degrees out and my stove is acting up. Point being, when you do have issues, it will be at a time when all dealers will be out straight. Do your research BB is correct there are alternative stoves that can accomplish the heating task cheaper than Harman
ITs up to you to justify paying for Harman quality

 

[HarryBack]

yea, Elk is right, you definitely should ask them if there is a problem servicing units 50 miles away....thats a huge territory, unless where you live is exceedingly rural. The dealer should answer you honestly, and you should be satisfied with whatever answer they give you. We wont travel 50 miles for service. I have sold units that far tho.....but in selling the units, we told the customer we would not travel to his place to service the unit....he'd have to bring it to us...that was understood BEFORE the sale. I always try to get folks to buy local. As for part support, last year, we had no problem getting auger motors, boards, etc. Stoves were hard to get tho, some options were dang near impossible to obtain, but they dont affect the working of the stove at all. There were some issues with new stoves tho, like Pete S's buzzing XXV...took him quite some time to get that fixed, although I should point out that the XXV was a brand new stove at that time, while I dont beleive Quad came out with anything new.....the reason I like to avoid first year buying of anything.....easy to fix known problems in known stoves.
As for price, I have to admit, some dealers most likely profit more on Harman, and use other stoves as more of a price point unit. Ive seen dealers mark up some stoves hugely....maybe Im jealous, but in my market area, I just cant make the money some seem to make.....a p68 in Canada for 3300 US? wow! I will say, and challenge you, that feature for feature, Harman is still the best stove out there. Given a FAIR market price, not exhorbitant, Harman is still the best value as well. The ability to burn any type of wood pellet, Premium/standard/industrial, the ability to burn corn and pellets, an underfire feed, thermostatic control.....not all folks need these things, so maybe a Harman isnt for all folks.....how many pellet stoves can successfully burn a 50/50 corn pellet mix? How many pellet stoves can burn Industrial grade pellets without alot of fuss (correct me if Im wrong, but an inclined auger feed system, such as the Quad, wont do it well, if at all)?

Yea, summer is slower for service, but beleive it or not, we still do get calls, even now! Baffling!

I also have to mention that you are comparing with the XXV Harmans top-of-the-line cast iron, feature-rich pellet stove, to non-cast, less feature rich units. Kind of like comparing a meal of Cup-o-Noodles soup to Lobstah! They both will fill you up, both probably arent good for you, for that matter, but the extreme majority will go for the lobster if its a fair price. theres always going to be a few folks who will take the noodles, for whatever skewed reason.

In essense tho, Elk is fundamentally correct. If you dont care about looks, warrantees, and are just looking for something that can burn a premuim pellet for heat, you can almost certainly find cheaper units than Harman. Its all a moot point tho, if you cant get pellets.

 

[elkimmeg]

Hyjacking this thread a bit. There must be some sort of storage facility in Ma or central southern NewEndland where surplus corn is bought. What reamains un sold in the field, it goes some where? Or is it all just chewed up for silage?

I will be looking and asking these question to discover a source of corn. There are still some framers left that grow large fields of corn. This would help you Harry to have the info. With the vollume of pellets you sell. If corn could be bought cheaper enough. even 30/70 or 50/50 mix,reduced the fuel supply cost you would sell more units, Having a working display with 50/50 mix would make the point. I know how you have dissed corn as a fuel in the past but what if? yet I also noticed you expound the Harman ability to burn corn, in your sales approach and Harman's support? Are you the john Kerry of dealers? (Only kidding here)

 

[HarryBack]

John Kerry?! perish the thought!

Alot of the corn grown IS chopped for silage, beleive it or not! Was talking to a corn farmer in Amherst...said that most of his stuff goes to silage, with a small part of his crop being grown for food.


Ive no problem with corn per se, Elk. The problem I have is when folks tell me its little work, then go on to say they haul it, screen it, comparmentalize it, and then store it. I want to find a corn thats bagged, 12-15% moisture, of consistent quality. Most of my customers arent gonna haul their own corn, just like they arent gonna chop their own wood. Theres multitiudes of folks who do do just that, but the majority of my folks wont. Now, also, that bagged corn has to be cheaper than pellets by a fair margin, otherwise, why burn it at all? Its messier, etc. The other issue I have with corn is the folks who wont do the required maintenance for a corn stove. As you know, if the maintenance isnt done, the stoves gonna crap out, and we'll get called. You get there to a PO'd customer, tell them its their fault, and charge them a service fee! Then the usual argument about how they just spent X dollars, they dont feel they should pay for the service, etc....., and theres alot more maintenance on a corn stove...more ash...more clinkers....alot more ash.......

I have also to admit, Elk, I chose the ability to burn corn to crash your Quad argument. Your Quad wont do it. Top-drops wont burn corn..........


The only way Ive figured so far to sell corn is to presell it....take enough orders to fill a truck...order the truck, get it delivered to me, and have it delivered to the end-user or get it picked up FAST before the rodents find it.
Bottom line, a corn stove certainly isnt for everyone. A pellet stove I beleive is more likely to serve the general populace better, and with the Harman, you have the added benefit, if you so choose, to burn a mix of corn as well. Ive also seen p61's burn pea pellets, oats, etc.

And Ive got a corn stove in stock....got it in last week.....now to find fuel.......

 

[HarryBack]

After visiting the dealertoday we learned the prices are as follows, which sound a little high. The price of the XXV is $3161, although it is currently on sale for $2996. The venting thimble is $156 and the piping would be somewhere in the ball park of $175-225. The 40x40 mat w/ trim would be another $314. All of these prices are before tax or installation, which we'd probably do ourselves. Compared to what I've read in this forum, these prices seem high. Can anyone verify this one way or the other?

There is another Harman dealerthat I can go to and compare prices with, but I have a friend that purchased from the first dealer we visited today and he has been very happy with them. I feel like I'm buying a car and I really hate the whole car buying experience! The last thing I want to do is go back and see that stove on sale for $200-300 less than what I paid for it, but I've got to assume that prices are just going to get higher as fall and winter approaches.

ok- update....we sell the XXV's for $2399 US. The rest of the costs dont seem really off-base.

 

[pelletheat]

Elk,

Harman has over 250 employees and plans to double it's work force over the next 5 years. The comment (which you mentioned earlier this season also) of having only "25" employees is totally incorrect. Maybe 15 years ago that would have been a true statement.

(broken link removed to http://www.weldingdesign.com/323/News/Article/False/17867/)

 

[Shane]

Vertical Auger systems will burn corn 50/50. Avalon Astoria and Lopi Yankee were recently approved for this. The Enviros will do it as well. Quad is approved for 50/50 corn mix as well if I remember correctly.

 

[HarryBack]

shh......quiet Shane! ;-)

 

[seaken]

Each to his own but by my calculations with just the numbers you posted plus a ton of pellets a month would put you over $300 a month to heat with that thing. That is figuring a conservative usage of five years and no maintenace on the stove. Toss in chimney cleaning, maintenance and the surity of increasing pellet prices and heating is getting pretty expensive with that puppy.

Of course regional differences must be considered but my calculations of costs are closer to $200/mo.

1500 sq. ft., moderate insulation
Approx 3 tons per year
$3000 stove
Approx $1250 pipe and installation (yes, dealer installed)
Approx $400 maintenance cost per year (includes one dealer cleaning)
10 year life span (Quality stove, probably more than 10 years)

In our area electricity is over $240/mo for same space
Wood stove costs about $140/mo

The difference between all fuels and devices is about $100 per month, in a 1500 sq. ft. space. More or less as space is smaller, larger, better insulated. etc.

We are finding that the main reason for going with pellet, or wood, is not always financial. For some, an extra $50/month makes is critical to stay with wood. But many folks have an extra $50/mo and have other reasons for going with pellet, or wood, or propane, or whatever. Some folks simply want to use less oil and gas and coal and choose wood, pellet, or corn. And fact is, in most cases the cost is not too different from using the oil or gas furnace. If you are willing to do the extra work to make solid fuel work for you it can be a satisfying solution for heat, even if it is not the cheapest solution.

At any rate, $300/mo is higher than most of my local customers can expect to pay. But, as Harry pointed out they could be spending that now in some cases. If they are, we'll have a good solution for them at a lower monthly cost. If they are closer to the $200/mo figure we still have an attractive alternative with many benefits beyond the financial consideration.

Sean

FYI, we have about the same price on the Harman XXV, about $3160.

 

[pelletheat]

Quad or Harman?

I would want to be educated by the dealer on the pro's & cons of operation for both units (maintenance also). This will allow you to make an educated decision based on your personal needs before purchasing. Service after the sale should be very critical in the final decision.

Good Luck.

 

[HarryBack]

good point, PH. Let the Quad dealer educate you on the Quad, the Harman Dealer educate you on the Harman. Let them hit you with their successive spiels, then make the decision thats right for you. A decision based on the stove, the dealer, and your buying experience.

 

[BrotherBart]

<snip> An excellent analysis from somebody that knows more about the pellet stove business than I ever will.

Thanks for the breakdown. I am going to have to think about pellets seriously one of these days just based on the fact that this old body won't be able to deal with trees for many more years. The major difference in our numbers comes from anticipated pellet usage and life of the stove. Several people on here have stated they average about a ton a month and I would never start out planning on more than a five year life (Says the guy burning a 21 year old stove. Go figure.) for something you burn fires in and that has mechanical componets. Plus the fact that lots of people don't stay in house ten years.

 

[seaken]

<snip> An excellent analysis from somebody that knows more about the pellet stove business than I ever will.

Thanks for the breakdown. I am going to have to think about pellets seriously one of these days just based on the fact that this old body won't be able to deal with trees for many more years. The major difference in our numbers comes from anticipated pellet usage and life of the stove. Several people on here have stated they average about a ton a month and I would never start out planning on more than a five year life (Says the guy burning a 21 year old stove. Go figure.) for something you burn fires in and that has mechanical componets. Plus the fact that lots of people don't stay in house ten years.

Points well taken. But I think 10 years is a fair term. It may be true that the original owner may sell the unit with the house, or whatever. But then, the whole yearly cost calculation becomes rediculous when trying to track how long the original owner will own the house, etc. I think its fair to consider the life of the appliance and the chimney system. My oil furnace was replaced about two years ago. The one before it was in this house for fifty years. Compared to the furnace now in place that's more than twice the life expectancy. When comparing appliances, chimneys, delivery systems we have to use a realistic average life expectancy. For most quality appliances somewhere between 10 and 20 years is fair. I use 10 for pellet and gas stoves, and 20 for good wood and coal stoves.

Also, the average size of a new home is getting bigger. I use an average of 1500 sq. ft. in this community but I know that many of the new homes are much bigger. Adjustments must be made for actual space being heated.

I also didn't comment on the benefit of space heating, or zone heating, when compared to the common central heat system burning oil or gas. Zone heating puts the heat where you need it, where you spend your time. The central furnace can be kept low and the space heater can heat your living area much more cost effectively. Add in the back-up features and independence to the environmental concerns and there ends up being many good reasons to burn pellets, corn, grass, or wood. Most of our pellet customers are not trying to use them as replacements to the central heating system. But as supplemental sources of heat, efficiently located and utilized in the living area, and for their long burn times - something not so easily achieved with a wood stove.

Sean

 

[jsagraves]

[/quote]ok- update....we sell the XXV's for $2399 US. The rest of the costs dont seem really off-base.[/quote]

Damn, can we just buy one off of you and have it shipped here? Our cost would still be less!! I realize we wouldn't have anyone around to service it though. I don't imagine the local dealers would service a stove bought elsewhere. That is a huge difference though!

How do I get the best price I can? Should I try to put these two dealers against one another? I hate to do business that way, but did I mention that is a huge difference?

 

[HarryBack]

ok- update....we sell the XXV's for $2399 US. The rest of the costs dont seem really off-base.[/quote]

Damn, can we just buy one off of you and have it shipped here? Our cost would still be less!! I realize we wouldn't have anyone around to service it though. I don't imagine the local dealers would service a stove bought elsewhere. That is a huge difference though!

How do I get the best price I can? Should I try to put these two dealers against one another? I hate to do business that way, but did I mention that is a huge difference?[/quote]

Nope....we dont ship. The local dealer IS NOT required to service units he doesnt sell, so I'd reccommend buying local. Some dealers do succumb to the "other guy sells it for this" tactic.....some dont. I know we dont. We know our overhead and what we want to make for profit, not the other guy....so he gets his price, we get ours. Sometimes we are cheaper, sometimes him. When a customer tries to negotiate pricing, I tend to shy away from them.