Climate change redux

[jharkin]

I think jebatty made some very good points about taxes so I wont rehash that. ^^^^^

If you really think the price of your car you just bought is due to taxes I suggest you go look up the financials of GM. *cough* bailout *cough*


Moving jobs overseas makes sense not due to taxes and regulatios but due to free trade deals like NAFTA etc. A lot of folks also think that NAFTA had a big part in crushing the Mexican economy leading to the flood of immigration that Republicans love to complain about. you can blame both the Dems and The Reps for NAFTA.


Oh and BTW the golden age of a prosperous middle class in this country - the 60s - also had some of the highest tax rates in history. Sorry to burst your bubble, taxes dont kill the little guy.

 

[jharkin]

I'd give up government-funded healthcare and social security in about a second flat, jebatty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its easy to say when you dont need either. ANd in disclosure I probably wont actually need SS in my retirement either.

However a large majority of retirees in this country - my parents included - would be destitute without it. So whether we like it or not eliminating it is a non starter for both parties.

 

[sportbikerider78]

I would opt out of social security right now at 38 yrs old..as I know I will never see a penny of my hundreds of thousands over a lifetime.
I would give up paying for obamacare.
I would give up public schools or take a tax different to spend my money on private schools.
I would keep the troops home, since our excessive military spend is overseas in wars that make us less safe not more safe. I'd the take the military surplus and secure our border.
I would elimate the TSA as they do not make us safer.

There is no limit to how much the government can spend and tax. Evidence enough is our $18T debt that we can only afford the interest payments on..and has been doubling every 4-5 yrs.

 

[sportbikerider78]

I think jebatty made some very good points about taxes so I wont rehash that. ^^^^^

If you really think the price of your car you just bought is due to taxes I suggest you go look up the financials of GM. *cough* bailout *cough*


Moving jobs overseas makes sense not due to taxes and regulatios but due to free trade deals like NAFTA etc. A lot of folks also think that NAFTA had a big part in crushing the Mexican economy leading to the flood of immigration that Republicans love to complain about. you can blame both the Dems and The Reps for NAFTA.


Oh and BTW the golden age of a prosperous middle class in this country - the 60s - also had some of the highest tax rates in history. Sorry to burst your bubble, taxes dont kill the little guy.

Agree completely on NAFTA and bailouts.

Actually taxes hurt the little guy disproportionately more than the wealthy. Gas taxes, sales taxes, home taxes and the like are a straight percentage of total purchase price..and a greater percentage of a little guys total wage.

Tax rates a re very different than taxes collected. If you look from a very high level, tax collected as % of GDP has been about the same since the 50's. What has changed is all of the fines that are new since the 50's and always keep increasing..and state taxes not in federal income tax rates.

 

[jebatty]

Gas taxes, sales taxes, home taxes and the like are a straight percentage of total purchase price..and a greater percentage of a little guys total wage.

The federal gas tax of $0.184/gal hasn't changed since 2005 when it was raised to that level under republican President George W. Bush. Many states have gas taxes as high or higher, plus ever-rising local property taxes. So the point you really are making about taxes, fines and fees is that this is a state issue primarily, not a federal issue. Towns, cities and state government are at the heart of the tax problem, with which I agree.

 

[jharkin]

I would opt out of social security right now at 38 yrs old..as I know I will never see a penny of my hundreds of thousands over a lifetime.

A common argument I have with republican friends is that they believe SS is a savings account held in their name that the feds are stealing. That's not how it works. SS is a tax funded old age insurance policy that pays out like an inflation adjusted fixed annuity. It is not a savings vehicle.

Im 40. And have been paying into SS at the cap rate for years. If you pay in at the cap from the day you turn 20 till the day you hit 65 you would pay an inflation adjusted 300k give or take over 45 years give or take. But most people pay far less, and the formula allows you to draw the full benefit after only 35 years of paying in. Anyone who lives past their mid-80s draws out more than they paid in.

Unless the world ends or you die before your FRA you WILL get something. The current estimate is that the program will stop running surpluses in about 4 years, and then will draw down the trust funds till they are exhausted in 2034, after which SS will only be able to pay out from FICA tax receipts which is projected to cover 70ish % of expected obligations.

Medicare funding is a bigger problem, but so many Americans rely on both programs that at some point the parties will be force to compromise on a fix (increased taxes and/or benefit cuts). They have done it before, as seen when congress approved making benefits taxable during the Reagan years.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/social...understanding-the-social-security-trust-funds

I would give up paying for obamacare.

Liberals dont like Obamacare either. We wanted universal single payer, but what we got was ACA, otherwise known as Romneycare which was modeled after an idea (albeit not popular) that some conservative think tank came up with in the 90s

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...5/ellen-qualls/aca-gop-health-care-plan-1993/

The reality is there is no easy fix.

Moving to universal single payer is probably a non starter because the private insurance industry would implode and destroy the economy. (To bad since single payer is proven to be a workable system that provides care at a fraction of the price we pay all over the first world)

Going back to the old purely private system will leave lots of people without insurance. That doesn't actually save us any money - because all those uninsured go to the ER when they get sick and get care but cant pay the bill. The cost of that care is baked into the rates that those of us with insurance pay. So we will pay either way. This way is more expensive.

I would give up public schools or take a tax different to spend my money on private schools.

Abolish public schools? Are you serious? Send us right back to the middle ages where only the lords can afford to give their kids an education while the rest of us peasants labor in the fields. No thanks.

I would keep the troops home, since our excessive military spend is overseas in wars that make us less safe not more safe. I'd the take the military surplus and secure our border.

On this we agree. We are all tired of all the wars.

I would elimate the TSA as they do not make us safer.

I haven't researched enough to comment intelligently on this one... but there does appear to be problems....

There is no limit to how much the government can spend and tax. Evidence enough is our $18T debt that we can only afford the interest payments on..and has been doubling every 4-5 yrs.

Ok this one is complicated and I dont understand it all./ There used to be a fellow on this board (Ashful remembers ) who would come on here
and give us a 5 page economics treatise about how the debt is meaningless since we print the money and can just inflate it away.

What I do know is that looking at it in absolute dollars is a less informative picture that looking at it in inflation adjusted terms or better yet as a % of GDP. As a % of GDP it looks like this:



Now you can see clearly that it spikes whenever we have to spend our way out of a crisis -WWI, WWII, the depression, the great recession. You can also clearly see how it went up during the free spending Reagan years, down during the clinton surpluses and spiked hwen GWB signed the great recession bailout package.


Meanwhile tax rates have been on a continual trend down since the 60s, with the highest earners getting the most relief





And corporations too:

Agree completely on NAFTA and bailouts.

Actually taxes hurt the little guy disproportionately more than the wealthy. Gas taxes, sales taxes, home taxes and the like are a straight percentage of total purchase price..and a greater percentage of a little guys total wage.

Tax rates a re very different than taxes collected. If you look from a very high level, tax collected as % of GDP has been about the same since the 50's. What has changed is all of the fines that are new since the 50's and always keep increasing..and state taxes not in federal income tax rates.

We agree that taxes hit the little guy worse - which is why liberals rail against tax cut plans that provide more relief to the highest incomes than to the middle and working classes.

jebatty already pointed out that gas taxes have been flat for years. I live in a state (Mass) that's usually considered high tax but the reality is that we have been cutting taxes here for decades and actually our income and sales taxes are only average nationally . However expenses keep growing with inflation so the result of all that tax cutting is crumbling infrastructure, failing transit and spiraling debt that is starting to bite us in the @$$. Towns are forced to make up the difference in lost state revenue by hiking property taxes, but Prop 2.5 limits what they can do so instead they have to cut school programs and institute fees.

I always find it funny how people can expect to get annual 4% raises in the private sector then turn around and claim teachers, cops and firemen should accept a salary frozen for life because it comes out of taxes

 

[woodgeek]

When the warming alarmests factor in all the seismic activity then I will listen to them. so many have conveniently forgot to include, one big volcanic boom puts out more co2 and the like than all of mankinds entire history .

Jeremy got here first, but when you crunch the numbers even a large eruption like the Mt St Helens one years ago only release about the same CO2 as human activity does in a few weeks of time.

 

[sportbikerider78]

jebatty already pointed out that gas taxes have been flat for years. I live in a state (Mass) that's usually considered high tax but the reality is that we have been cutting taxes here for decades and actually our income and sales taxes are only average nationally . However expenses keep growing with inflation so the result of all that tax cutting is crumbling infrastructure, failing transit and spiraling debt that is starting to bite us in the @$$. Towns are forced to make up the difference in lost state revenue by hiking property taxes, but Prop 2.5 limits what they can do so instead they have to cut school programs and institute fees.

I always find it funny how people can expect to get annual 4% raises in the private sector then turn around and claim teachers, cops and firemen should accept a salary frozen for life because it comes out of taxes

You're interjecting many things we are not talking about, like firemens salaries.

I addressed the tax issue very clearly. Tax collected and tax rates are very different things. Tax code changes constantly and does not resemble any similarity to the 50's. Our federal rate may be changing and getting better, but codes are changing and other fines are always being added....which lets us keep less of our income.

The question I was addressing is what would "I" give up to have taxes reduced. You may not like my answers, but that's ok. We don't have to agree. I have researched these issues extensively and not formed my opinions lightly. I greatly enjoy economics and find it fascinating.

 

[jharkin]

YOur federal rate may be changing and getting better, but codes are changing and other fines are always being added....which lets us keep less of our income.

But yet the data shows, that when calculated as a % of GDP federal tax receipts are basically flat since the end of WWII. Please give some examples of these "new fines" I am paying.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Right...federal is flat. Some states don't have state income taxes and may more didn't back then. Capital gains has gone up considerably and some play the market some do not.
Things I pay fines and taxes on that have gone up considerably in my lifetime...car registration, car inspection, car taxes every year (in some states), school taxes, any type of licencing and permitting ($300 for a pistol permit?), buying a home has a huge amount of taxes, cable bill, water bill, sewer bill...everything has extra taxes piled on it.
Some aren't new,,but they're all going up.

 

[NateB]

Its easy to say when you dont need either. ANd in disclosure I probably wont actually need SS in my retirement either.

However a large majority of retirees in this country - my parents included - would be destitute without it. So whether we like it or not eliminating it is a non starter for both parties.

I'm with Ashful. I am not saying get rid of it. I am saying let me opt out. Keep the money I already put in, just let me opt out. Also if your parents had all the money that was taken from them and put into social security, and instead invested in some long term CD they would be way ahead for retirement. By the way if your parents are in need let me know I will make sure they don't go hungry or have to sleep in the cold.

The answer to these problems is not Democrats or Republicans or big business. They are all a bunch of deceitful crooks. Freedom is the solution, and freedom takes hard work and sacrifice. Community and helping your neighbor is the only thing that will get us through the coming collapse. Brace your self it is going to get bumpy.

 

[Ashful]

Its easy to say when you dont need either. ANd in disclosure I probably wont actually need SS in my retirement either.

However a large majority of retirees in this country - my parents included - would be destitute without it. So whether we like it or not eliminating it is a non starter for both parties.

Your parents won't be destitute... they have you. The gripe is not with helping the destitute, but that government does such a horrendously poor job at at it. I give more through church and charity than many folks make in a year, and I believe most with the means do much of the same. My issue with the socialist democratic party leadership is not what they're selling, it's their failure to hold themselves to the standards they preach, and not realizing the government can't do this job without gross inefficiency.

But, that's a major tangent from the aim of this thread. I was simply pointing out that as long as there is a party line drawn down the middle of the climate change debate, with the overwhelmingly more successful and influential individuals (business, not celebrity) on the "nay" side of that line, we're not likely to see much progress on that front. I have no solution to suggest, it's just an observation.

As far as cars and taxes, I see no issue with "pay to play" mentality, even when it comes to the gas guzzler tax I've been paying on my last few vehicles. Steering the majority toward the most ethical choice, while permitting those who want to pay for the privilege of doing their own thing, isn't hampering anyone's liberty.

 

[Doug MacIVER]

Right...federal is flat. Some states don't have state income taxes and may more didn't back then. Capital gains has gone up considerably and some play the market some do not.
Things I pay fines and taxes on that have gone up considerably in my lifetime...car registration, car inspection, car taxes every year (in some states), school taxes, any type of licencing and permitting ($300 for a pistol permit?), buying a home has a huge amount of taxes, cable bill, water bill, sewer bill...everything has extra taxes piled on it.
Some aren't new,,but they're all going up.

for those of us that are older, we could deduct sales taxes and interest from any legit transaction. not so today. talk every year on tax reform includes removing interest deduction for home mortgages. in fact some of that deduction has been removed for those on the upper end. a couple lost major deductions for a lot of folks.

on the climate thing. this year is all about the spike in warm temp. this was well predicted and expected with a strong el nino. for me all it about agw vs nature. this one is one I give to nature. how much agw, how much natural? jury still out .

for reference it wasn't that warm everywhere this summer! arctic at and mostly below norm all summer

 

[Doug MacIVER]

Not a local phenomenon. Global glacier mass balance is in serious decline.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850
Glaciers in Asia - Himalayas are in serious decline. When they are gone so are the rivers that nourish millions of people.

some folks can argue that ice age has yet to end. still remnant glaciers and frozen poles. if agreed we are in a interglacial era, then maybe what is happening now is what it is supposed to be.

 

[bfitz3]

You and I will always disagree on this one. On a related note, I heard today that Phelps now has 22 olympic medals. How is that fair, when I have none? How long until the Sanders supporters ask him to hand some of those out to those without one?

This may be the most asinine thing I've read this year.

 

[jharkin]

Right...federal is flat. Some states don't have state income taxes and may more didn't back then. Capital gains has gone up considerably and some play the market some do not.
Things I pay fines and taxes on that have gone up considerably in my lifetime...car registration, car inspection, car taxes every year (in some states), school taxes, any type of licencing and permitting ($300 for a pistol permit?), buying a home has a huge amount of taxes, cable bill, water bill, sewer bill...everything has extra taxes piled on it.
Some aren't new,,but they're all going up.

Capital gains has NOT gone up. The gains rates have gone down with everything else. Why do you guys lie about things that are so easily fact checked?

(broken link removed to http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-capital-gains-tax-rates-1988-2013)

I'm with Ashful. I am not saying get rid of it. I am saying let me opt out. Keep the money I already put in, just let me opt out. Also if your parents had all the money that was taken from them and put into social security, and instead invested in some long term CD they would be way ahead for retirement. By the way if your parents are in need let me know I will make sure they don't go hungry or have to sleep in the cold.

So many holes in this... where to begin.

First off, the best I can get on a "CD" today is about 1%. They are basically a joke now.... I'm actually loosing money after inflation.

Also if you think that we can just let people opt out without the system collapsing you have some fundamental misunderstandings of how it works. SS benefit checks going out this year to people in retirement are not paid from earnings on the money they put in during their working years. They are paid from the taxes working people like me are contributing this year. Its a shared risk insurance pool. If we let people opt out, the people who leave will be folks working today and primarily the wealthiest who need it least. Which will mean even less funding to pay out current benefits, and the need to raise the tax rate on those who stay in ( the people who need it most and can least afford to pay the tax).


The bottom line is that social security is NOT AN INVESTMENT. Its an insurance policy.

Its to protect the elderly against becoming destitute if their regular retirement savings run out. Or some unexpected black swan event happens and wipes out the market.

I probably wont NEED my SS either... but if have really bad like and an event like 1929 happens the year I retire and destroys my careful planning SS will always be there to ensure I dont eat dogfood.

Or if I am the exception to the actuarial tables and freakishly live to 120 years old and outlive my savings even using a conservative 3% SWR, SS will always be there, no matter how long I live, to ensure I dont eat dogfood.


That's the purpose of SS. Its not to be a savings account. Its not to be anyone primary retirement income (although sadly it ends up that way for far too many). Its to insure against millions of elderly becoming homeless in the event of unexpected contingencies.

This need is actually growing more and more important every year - the move of industry away from defined benefit pension programs that where involuntary to near universal 401/403/IRA/TSP (that most people under utilize and dont understand), combined with the pitiful state of financial literacy in this country is a ticking time bomb of unprepared retirees.

Why is that so hard for conservatives to understand?


And before you say it, yes I am well aware that when I turn 65 I could cash out my IRA and buy a SPIA for the same type of insurance protection, but as much as you may hate it, historically the fed is a safer bet than any private insurance company.

Your parents won't be destitute... they have you. The gripe is not with helping the destitute, but that government does such a horrendously poor job at at it. I give more through church and charity than many folks make in a year, and I believe most with the means do much of the same. My issue with the socialist democratic party leadership is not what they're selling, it's their failure to hold themselves to the standards they preach, and not realizing the government can't do this job without gross inefficiency.

I was using my parents as an example to show that I have skin in the game from both sides (I am well enough off to not need it, my parents depend on it). Not every retired couple is so lucky.

 

[NateB]

Capital gains has NOT gone up. The gains rates have gone down with everything else. Why do you guys lie about things that are so easily fact checked?

(broken link removed to http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-capital-gains-tax-rates-1988-2013)






So many holes in this... where to begin.

First off, the best I can get on a "CD" today is about 1%. They are basically a joke now.... I'm actually loosing money after inflation.

Also if you think that we can just let people opt out without the system collapsing you have some fundamental misunderstandings of how it works. SS benefit checks going out this year to people in retirement are not paid from earnings on the money they put in during their working years. They are paid from the taxes working people like me are contributing this year. Its a shared risk insurance pool. If we let people opt out, the people who leave will be folks working today and primarily the wealthiest who need it least. Which will mean even less funding to pay out current benefits, and the need to raise the tax rate on those who stay in ( the people who need it most and can least afford to pay the tax).


The bottom line is that social security is NOT AN INVESTMENT. Its an insurance policy.

Its to protect the elderly against becoming destitute if their regular retirement savings run out. Or some unexpected black swan event happens and wipes out the market.

I probably wont NEED my SS either... but if have really bad like and an event like 1929 happens the year I retire and destroys my careful planning SS will always be there to ensure I dont eat dogfood.

Or if I am the exception to the actuarial tables and freakishly live to 120 years old and outlive my savings even using a conservative 3% SWR, SS will always be there, no matter how long I live, to ensure I dont eat dogfood.


That's the purpose of SS. Its not to be a savings account. Its not to be anyone primary retirement income (although sadly it ends up that way for far too many). Its to insure against millions of elderly becoming homeless in the event of unexpected contingencies.

This need is actually growing more and more important every year - the move of industry away from defined benefit pension programs that where involuntary to near universal 401/403/IRA/TSP (that most people under utilize and dont understand), combined with the pitiful state of financial literacy in this country is a ticking time bomb of unprepared retirees.

Why is that so hard for conservatives to understand?


And before you say it, yes I am well aware that when I turn 65 I could cash out my IRA and buy a SPIA for the same type of insurance protection, but as much as you may hate it, historically the fed is a safer bet than any private insurance company.




I was using my parents as an example to show that I have skin in the game from both sides (I am well enough off to not need it, my parents depend on it). Not every retired couple is so lucky.

Right and exactly what interest rate are you getting on social security right now?

Sorry you said it is an insurance. Name one insurance where people who don't qualify"need" for assistance are required to take a pay out?

I am not saying there should be no safety net. I am saying social security is a scam to buy votes not help people.

Why don't liberals understand that people who think differently from them are not conservatives. Just people who see a screwed up system, and see a need to replace it not throw more money at it.

 

[begreen]

Closing thread. It has gone way off the rails and the ash can is no longer around.

 

[jharkin]

Right and exactly what interest rate are you getting on social security right now?

Sorry you said it is an insurance. Name one insurance where people who don't qualify"need" for assistance are required to take a pay out?

I am not saying there should be no safety net. I am saying social security is a scam to buy votes not help people.

Why don't liberals understand that people who think differently from them are not conservatives. Just people who see a screwed up system, and see a need to replace it not throw more money at it.

THERE IS NO INTEREST RATE ON SOCIAL SECURITY! For the last time IT IS NOT A SAVINGS VEHICLE.



Read this entire article, then lets talk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)


And dont even start with the liberals vs. conservative rant. I DID NOT start it. Other posters who started yelling socialists and callling the democrats the party of hand outs did. I am just responding with facts and links to actual data. Its not a black and white, yes or no issue. Its a complex problem affecting millions of people that does not have an easy soundbite, talking points, facebook meme answer.