Chimney Pipe ID???

[jtp10181]

stovetech, it does fit, my installers have done it numerous times. They grumble and complain because its a pain but they still get it done. We charge $600 for a wood insert install local area, that includes installed an insulated liner. We also preview all jobs of this type and come prepared with the right materials. If its an oval flue we order the simpson duravent rigid double-wall pre-insulated duraliner, goes right down an 8x12 oval clay tile with room to spare.

Texas Boy, you could do it yourself I suppose... I imagine you would be wrestling with that liner quite a bit. Where is your offset in the flue? You might be able to use the simpson duraliner which is a rigid pre-insulated pipe. If the offset is at the bottom you use a flex piece at the bottom and put an insulation boot over it. Its prob about 50% more expensive though than a flex liner + insulation.

You could also just do what probably most other dealers in the country do and just throw an uninsulated 6" liner down there, and also you might as well block off the cooling air for the old chimney since probably half do that too. I would guess only a few people loose their houses from installs like that each year, just cross your fingers.

 

[Thomkatt77]

Reasearching the fireplace right now, will report back shortly. Found a manual so far

(broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2008/7412948_SR_SC_Series_A.pdf)

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Ok... so you had two choices of chimney on that unit. the "SK8" or "MHSC". You have the SK8 because that's the double wall, the MHSC is triple wall.

The SK8 is UL Listed U-260,258 according to this document I found (broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/Majestic_Wood.pdf)

I can't find any info on the MHSC pipe but if its the old Majestic triple wall I am thinking of I know its not 2100 deg rated.

The UL listing you need for a prefab pipe to be 2100 deg is UL-103HT which neither of those pipes is.

To have the install be safe you need to install a full 6" liner with a 1/2" insulation wrap on it. This makes the liner system meet UL-1777 which is what most wood inserts require and are tested for. Also since your prefab pipe is air cooled you need to keep the pipe system functioning as intended. You cannot block off the air chamber at the top of the pipe. You can either leave the bottom half of the cap in place which has the cooling vents or you can run the liner right through the top of the old cap and put the new one on top.

It does not matter how you use your stove, if you use it once a year or 24/7 all winter long. It was only tested by the specs in the install manual, if the installation deviates from this you are on un-tested ground. Some things may be fine forever and never cause a problem but you never really can know for sure. Eventually some day one of this guys customers is going to run their fireplace for a week straight full blast and start their attic on fire due to the pipe overheating. Or if someone has a massive chimney fire it could also start the house on fire.

I really hate to put a damper on all this discussion of pipe and suitability. HOWEVER...
As you quoted above about the CFM SK8 pipe not being rated properly... First do you own research, go to the UL Standards and look up what is shown on that page from Vermont. Someone screwed up somewhere with that page. The u-260,258 actually refers to Fire SPRINKLERS. Mainly (260) being the Dry pipe and Deluge valves while (258) is for Shut off Valves.

The ACTUAL UL listing for the SK8 is "UL 127/ULC S610" According to 'Published" Manual and Specs for that size of Firebox. http://www.majesticproducts.com/product/specs/SR_SC36A.pdf
Looking up these listing it will show that the test is ran upto 2100 degrees yet not less than 1700 degrees, per manufactures discretion. ALSO UL 103 does not state the pipe IS rated at 2100 degrees. Read your standards before speaking. AS quoted "Factory-Built Chimneys for Residential Type and Building Heating Appliances
UL 103

1 Scope

1.1 These requirements cover factory-built chimneys intended for venting gas, liquid, and solid-fuel fired residential-type appliances and building heating appliances in which the maximum continuous flue-gas outlet temperatures do not exceed 1000°F (538°C). Factory-built chimneys are intended for installation in accordance with the Standard for Chimneys, Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid-Fuel Burning Appliances, NFPA 211, and in accordance with codes such as the International Mechanical Code, the International Residential Code, and the Uniform Mechanical Code. They are intended for installation inside or outside of buildings or both, in a manner that provides a vertical (30 degree maximum offset) conduit or passageway to transport flue gases to the outside.
1.1 revised June 30, 2006

1.2 The chimneys covered by these requirements comply with either a limited duration 1700°F (927°C) flue-gas temperature test or a limited duration 2100°F (1149°C) flue-gas temperature test, at the manufacturer's option.
1.2 revised June 30, 2006

1.3 These requirements cover dual purpose residential type and building heating appliance type chimneys, and single purpose building heating appliance type chimneys. Dual purpose residential type and building heating appliance type chimneys are tested enclosed and intended to be installed unenclosed or enclosed with combustible construction. Single purpose building heating appliance type chimneys are tested unenclosed and intended to be installed unenclosed or enclosed in a noncombustible chase.
1.3 added June 30, 2006
End Quote

As long as installation is followed, all clearances to combustables are met OR exceeded, Chimney is swept on a regular basis, the chances of a flue fire is minimal. Even with Insulated Pipe the chances of a flue fire is the same. Most "chimney' fires are caused by clearances not followed, wires ran against flue ( I have seen this first hand electrical, A/V, Cable TV wires ran in the chase and against flue. Several Fires in Central Florida was directly related to this problem).

Texas Boy, since you have been in your attic looking around, go back and check your clearances. If they are incorrect have the installer come back and correct it. Ensure that an attic shield was installed. Looks like a canister at ceiling level around the flue, keeps insulation and other combustibles away from flue to a height of 18'' or more. If your Fireplace was installed a decade ago, which I doubt because of the model number (more likely in the last 4 years or sooner, not sure actually when Majestic change codes), then look at installing a liner. Otherwise....

 

[jtp10181]

There is UL 103 rating and also a UL103HT rating. The HT is the 2100 deg listing. The HT I belive just means they passed the "optional" 2100 deg test. Either way I still doubt the SK8 is rated for the UL103HT 2100 rating.

 

[Thomkatt77]

There is UL 103 rating and also a UL103HT rating. The HT is the 2100 deg listing. The HT I belive just means they passed the "optional" 2100 deg test. Either way I still doubt the SK8 is rated for the UL103HT 2100 rating.

The main thing that I am saying here is that you are suggesting that the fireplace TexasBoy has will burn down his house due to the wrong pipe being installed. Also he should contact someone to supply him with a liner. The fact is he has a UL listed Factory Made Fireplace and corresponding pipe as recommended by said manufacturer, All parts are rated by Underwriters. Also in accordance with NFPA 211. The UL 103 standard pertains to installing factory made flues to a non listed component or fireplace, such as a masonary or Isokern fireplace, as an example. In this case as stated above all components are from the same manufacturer and are considered a complete assembly. Depending on your local Building Codes specific wording, I highly doubt it is saying that a manufactured UL listed assembly be modified or changed to conform to a standard not directed to to it. Now on the other hand, if someone (for the sake of disscussion) bought or received a Isokern 42" standard series and install SL1100 Series Flue to it, Then Yes I would Highly recommend installing UL 103 Listed Liner. Considering Isokern calls for UL 103 rated flues for their product.

As for the SK8 pipe being tested at 2100 degrees, I can't say if it is or isn't. I haven't dealt with Majestic since 2005 and with them being bought out by Monessan I don't have a direct contact anymore to get a copy of the testing reports.

Quick Question for you. When you install a EL36 Do you install the SL300 series pipe or let's say DuraTech 960 Series?

 

[jtp10181]

Actually I never meant to suggest anywhere he had the wrong pipe on his unit. I guess you misunderstood some of my comments. This is also an old thread so there is not much point in discussing it further.

 

[scotsman]

Actually I never meant to suggest anywhere he had the wrong pipe on his unit. I guess you misunderstood some of my comments. This is also an old thread so there is not much point in discussing it further.

Well, it may be an "old" thead to all you "old" timers :lol: , but I've been reading and re-reading all the posts over and over to soak up all the info. Many good points and much good info and several angles I have not thought of. I'm learning more and more. The "packaged unit" discussion really made sense. Fear not, I shall use all information provided to best advantage. If you think of more good stuff and don't want to put it here, PM me please. What you say may be the piece that makes it all click. Thanks for all the discussion.