Chimney Liner Installation Details

[bholler]

Thanks again. I got the rear frame of the damper out, and removed the two center bricks. The outside bricks were in pretty tight, and I decided not to mess with them because it might disturb the side wall. I've got plenty of clearance now:

good deal you are on your way.

 

[patrickoneal]

When I did my install I spent a good 3 hours cutting and cleaning the smoke shelf/damper/ash/brick/mortar droppings to be able to fit my liner down into the fireplace from the flue. So you should take a look at that to see if you might need to notch out some metal/stone. Perhaps feel around up there now to see how much debris is on the top side and remove what you can now. if you do have to cut it, I would really highly recommend a face shield.


About the smoke chamber, is that ok to be made out of regular brick? mine was fire brick all the way up to the clay liner.

I ended up doing it without safety gear or a grinder. There wasn't a lot of junk up there, and I just used a sawzall to cut the damper(safety glasses probably would have been smart even though there was very little debris). I cut one side with a diamond blade, and found on the other side that a regular fine tooth metal blade cut faster. I switched back to the diamond blade when I got near the end of the cut, because the masonry will take the teeth off of a regular blade. For the bricks, I cut a bit of the mortar with the diamond blade, and smacked them with a drilling hammer and they came right out. It wasn't a bad job at all.

 

[bholler]

It wasn't a bad job at all.

No that type usually isnt

 

[patrickoneal]

I made the block off plate this afternoon. It didn't come out too bad considering I've never worked with sheet metal before. I used a $10 Harbor Freight sheet metal folder and a jigsaw. Using that folding tool necessitated splitting the rear flange into two pieces, and working back and forth and then together from the middle. A real brake would have been much better, because it wants to sag in the middle. That won't be an issue once I get it screwed in, so no big deal.

I'll now have to either figure out a way to locate the flue liner on the plate, or cut a large square hole in it and cut a beauty ring out of another piece of sheet metal to rivet to it.

 

[kennyp2339]

If you have any friends that do sheet metal they can lend you there circle drill cutter, used to cut perfect circle holes to connect flex line into duct work. All in all it looks like your doing a great job, cant wait to see the final results of your hard work.

 

[Xtrl9]

If you havent already plugged the hole where the gas line came in, you might consider running power in through there to an reptacle if you can fit it and have a blower. If not to both oh well. Looks like your firebox was quite a bit easier to desconstruct. I would go the beauty ring route if you don't have a straight run and will probably end up remaking my blockoff plate from steel instead of durock. So far its looking good.

 

[patrickoneal]

If you havent already plugged the hole where the gas line came in, you might consider running power in through there to an reptacle if you can fit it and have a blower. If not to both oh well. Looks like your firebox was quite a bit easier to desconstruct. I would go the beauty ring route if you don't have a straight run and will probably end up remaking my blockoff plate from steel instead of durock. So far its looking good.

Thanks.

The mortar is in, so no receptacle.

There's actually a couple of problems with putting a receptacle there anyway:

1. It's on the wrong side for my stove, I guess the cord could run around behind the stove.

2. It's against code to conceal a portable cord. Conduit and wire, or MC cable could eliminate the cord by directly wiring to the stove.

3. The cord is probably considered a disconnecting means, so a toggle switch would need to be installed on the circuit somewhere near by.

4. The temperature in there must be taken into consideration. A receptacle, which shouldn't be concealed anyway, typically has a 60C(140F) termination and operation rating, and who knows what temp the cord is rated for. Electrical load raises the wire temperature above ambient, but the blower wouldn't be much of a load. If the firebox gets over 140F not even considering electrical load, it's no good for sure. THHN wire is rated 90C(194F), so it's a bit better, and conduit would have to be installed to the stove to get around the receptacle issue. I don't have a clue how hot that area would get, but even THHN in conduit might not be rated high enough. High temperature wire, like what's inside an electric oven, might be suitable.

 

[Xtrl9]

There's actually a couple of problems with putting a receptacle there anyway:

1. It's on the wrong side for my stove, I guess the cord could run around behind the stove.

2. It's against code to conceal a portable cord. Conduit and wire, or MC cable could eliminate the cord by directly wiring to the stove.

3. The cord is probably considered a disconnecting means, so a toggle switch would need to be installed on the circuit somewhere near by.

4. The temperature in there must be taken into consideration. A receptacle, which shouldn't be concealed anyway, typically has a 60C(140F) termination and operation rating, and who knows what temp the cord is rated for. Electrical load raises the wire temperature above ambient, but the blower wouldn't be much of a load. If the firebox gets over 140F not even considering electrical load, it's no good for sure. THHN wire is rated 90C(194F), so it's a bit better, and conduit would have to be installed to the stove to get around the receptacle issue. I don't have a clue how hot that area would get, but even THHN in conduit might not be rated high enough. High temperature wire, like what's inside an electric oven, might be suitable.

1. My insert has instructions to route the chord from one side to the other so that took care of that

2. The difference in accessible and readily accessible is what made it ok to have in the fireplace.

3. The stove is only listed with factory provided/approved connections. So if you change it from plug to another means of disconnect you lose the listing for the appliance.

4. I had the same concerns about the temperature rating too. The wire had to go into a metal box and was 90c rated 12/3 because i couldn't downsize my tap. Regular duplex receptacle was what i used after looking up temp ratings in datasheets and coming up empty. The amp draw on a blower fan is pretty low. but even with a .29 derating (maximum possible derating listed in table 310.15(B)(2)(A) of a 90C conduction in free air (30a from 310.15(B)(17) you could have 9A amps on it, if you went worst case of from 310.15(B)(16) rating of 25A and derate by .29 you still have 7A. And all NM cable sheath is flame retardant.


I'm sitting for my journeyman exam in electricity as soon as the state approves my paperwork. I checked with my locality because i couldn't find anything in my code book about it. Like my teacher/county inspector always says its up to the authority having jurisdiction, so check with your locality before you do anything. You know you've got me curious now, I'm going to point my IR gun at the receptacle and chord tonight and see what it's reading.

 

[bholler]

1. My insert has instructions to route the chord from one side to the other so that took care of that

2. The difference in accessible and readily accessible is what made it ok to have in the fireplace.

3. The stove is only listed with factory provided/approved connections. So if you change it from plug to another means of disconnect you lose the listing for the appliance.

4. I had the same concerns about the temperature rating too. The wire had to go into a metal box and was 90c rated 12/3 because i couldn't downsize my tap. Regular duplex receptacle was what i used after looking up temp ratings in datasheets and coming up empty.

I can tell you without a doubt it is not legal in PA.

 

[Xtrl9]

I can tell you without a doubt it is not legal in PA.

What do you do in your locality to get power to an insert? Run an extension cord across the hearth? Are there any codes about fastening or protecting the chord or temp requirements?

 

[bholler]

What do you do in your locality to get power to an insert? Run an extension cord across the hearth? Are there any codes about fastening or protecting the chord or temp requirements?

You plug into an adjacent outlet. No you cannot run an extension cord across in front of the insert. I have had 3 fail inspection when the customer had an outlet in the firebox already. What code does VA use?

 

[Xtrl9]

You plug into an adjacent outlet. No you cannot run an extension cord across in front of the insert. I have had 3 fail inspection when the customer had an outlet in the firebox already. What code does VA use?

NFPTA70/NEC2011 until july 2017, but the provision is Statewide Uniform Building Code supersedes that and maybe why it is allowed. Man that would have been a problem for me with the adjacent outlet.

 

[patrickoneal]

1. My insert has instructions to route the chord from one side to the other so that took care of that

2. The difference in accessible and readily accessible is what made it ok to have in the fireplace.

3. The stove is only listed with factory provided/approved connections. So if you change it from plug to another means of disconnect you lose the listing for the appliance.

4. I had the same concerns about the temperature rating too. The wire had to go into a metal box and was 90c rated 12/3 because i couldn't downsize my tap. Regular duplex receptacle was what i used after looking up temp ratings in datasheets and coming up empty. The amp draw on a blower fan is pretty low. but even with a .29 derating (maximum possible derating listed in table 310.15(B)(2)(A) of a 90C conduction in free air (30a from 310.15(B)(17) you could have 9A amps on it, if you went worst case of from 310.15(B)(16) rating of 25A and derate by .29 you still have 7A. And all NM cable sheath is flame retardant.


I'm sitting for my journeyman exam in electricity as soon as the state approves my paperwork. I checked with my locality because i couldn't find anything in my code book about it. Like my teacher/county inspector always says its up to the authority having jurisdiction, so check with your locality before you do anything. You know you've got me curious now, I'm going to point my IR gun at the receptacle and chord tonight and see what it's reading.

You're right about the AHJ having the final say, but they aren't always right . I guess it depends on the stove, but if I put a receptacle inside and had to disconnect it with the stove going, it would be fun to find a screwdriver,remove the surround and slide out a hot stove(really, I'd just find the breaker).

I'm pretty sure all 15 and 20 amp receptacles are rated 60C for terminations, and I wouldn't think you should exceed that with the ambient temperature. I too am curious about how hot it gets back there. After I get mine going, I'll stick a thermocouple behind the surround and find out.

 

[Xtrl9]

Here are my results. Im a little shocked but its only hit 400 stovetop now and i kicked the blower on. I will check again before going to bed.

 

[patrickoneal]

Here are my results. Im a little shocked but its only hit 400 stovetop now and i kicked the blower on. I will check again before going to bed.

View attachment 193691 View attachment 193692

Cool. Thanks for posting that. Be aware that the less expensive the IR gun, the larger the area it reads and averages as you get further away. Things may have changed, but when I looked into them years ago, the Harbor Freight special would only really get a pinpoint reading right on top of something, whereas the $100+ models had a narrower cone. There should be a sticker on it that shows that specification.

 

[Xtrl9]

Max celcius temperature of way less than 50 (44) after hours of 400 or more stove temp.

 

[armanidog]

About the outlet, anyway to run conduit under the floor and come up near the stove? You could connect to a nearby outlet (if there are less than 10 outlets on the branch circuit) by fishing the wire up through the bottom wall plate and into the outlet box through a bottom knockout. Then connect to the circuit with pigtails.

 

[Xtrl9]

There should be a sticker on it that shows that specification.

Good info i didnt actually pay attention until you mentioned it. I did play with the accuracy of it while cooking breakfast and it was reading the hot pan at the same fluctuating temps almost touching and then walked away a few steps and shot it again. The spread does increase with distance but at 14" the spread is 1" which is close enough to the size of the plug body.
Guess the amazon cheapo was a good buy.

 

[patrickoneal]

I got the liner installed today. All I can say is that you guys that do this for a living definitely earn your money, and again, I really appreciated all the advice given.

I worked off of a 50' articulating lift, and it was still a bear to lift the liner up and into the chimney. What feels light on the ground isn't so light when you're up in the air wrestling it over your head down a chimney. It kept getting hung up on misaligned clay flue tiles, until I convinced my friend down below that he could yank the hell out of the rope.

I stuffed the smoke shelf with roxul all around the liner, and installed my block-off plate. I ended up cutting a 'U' shape out of the back of the plate, because the liner came down so close to the rear. I just have to cut a small piece of sheet metal to cover the small gap behind the liner, and then I'll seal it all up with high-temp RTV. I didn't see much need in stuffing the air space above the block-off plate, as it's just air space, then the roxul around the liner.

Also, for anyone else attempting a DIY: I found that stuffing roxul around the top of the liner at the chimney cap really helps center it up. My top plate was way off to one side until I took it back off and packed rockwool around the liner to center it up.

 

[RichW_SC]

Nice job! Did you rent the lift? If so what did that cost? I need one to replace some trim on my 2nd story.

 

[patrickoneal]

Nice job! Did you rent the lift? If so what did that cost? I need one to replace some trim on my 2nd story.

I did "rent" the lift, but the rate I get for weekend personal stuff is free or very low cost because of how much business we give the local rental place throughout the year at work.

The real cost for a day is something like $300. Home Depot does rent out the 50' towable articulating lifts like I used for like $350/day. The advantage of going through someone like United Rentals or Sunbelt instead of Home Depot is that most of them will only charge for one day of rent if you pick up late on a Friday and return it first thing Monday morning.

With the towable articulated lifts you need more boom than you think you might. The top of my chimney is something like 25' above grade, but you eat up a lot of boom swinging over the roof, not to mention clearing the outriggers. The non-towable(has to be delivered) articulating lifts are a little more versatile because they don't have outriggers(you can get the lift closer to the building). I thought I might be able to get away with a 35', but I'm glad I got a 50' because it let me comfortably up to the chimney but I had to use the jib to get there. It also let me get 4 or 5 feet over the chimney to straighten and shove the liner down.

If the trim isn't out over a roof, a 35' might do it, but working on a dormer or something a 50' would get there easier. Backing in also gets more room because the trailer sticks way out in the front(these lift booms spin all the way around in one direction). Here's the reach charts for JLG, Genie should be similar:

 

[patrickoneal]

My friend that helped with the install shared a couple of photos he took. I would have definitely hurt myself if I attempted this with a ladder of any sort. After I got it started, I just got a good bit above the chimney to straighten it out and push it down. I forbid him from taking video due to the high likelihood of foul language, and greatly increased risk of getting hit by something in the unmentionables when video is being recorded.