Chimney and cap repair

[Jo191145]

Sounds like a much better idea than backfilling it with mortar which is more common.

Your brick was cracking from the inside because water was able to find its way through the crown and then froze and busted.

Beleive it or not somewhere in the code books is a diagram calling for flues to be grouted solid on three sides leaving the fourth side open for air between flue and chimney against the house. Guess they assumed all chimneys were exterior.
As a mason I can't think of a worse idea than that. Pretty much guarantees a chimney fire will pop off that unsupported side of the flue. That's one code I never incorporated into my work.

The biggest problem with sealing chimneys is wear. The sealent will wear/degrede at the top first due to the most contact with weather. Then water is allowed in and the rest of the structure cannot breathe. JMO.

 

[bholler]

Beleive it or not somewhere in the code books is a diagram calling for flues to be grouted solid on three sides leaving the fourth side open for air between flue and chimney against the house. Guess they assumed all chimneys were exterior.
As a mason I can't think of a worse idea than that. Pretty much guarantees a chimney fire will pop off that unsupported side of the flue. That's one code I never incorporated into my work.

What code is that every code i have seen says they need to have space around them. But i dont worry about that code i have never built a chimney with a clay liner and we build get stainless right away. Most chimneys i see that are mortared solid have cracks in the exterior masonry because the liner expanded and blew the outside apart. And the good chimney sealers all breathe pretty well so that is not an issue i just see no benefit in most cases

 

[ccmac]

Yep, I used Chimney Saver which as Bholler correctly mentioned, they still breathe after applying. I used it because my chimney is brand new and I was concerned the brick would absorb a little moisture and then freeze at night and cause the brick faces to "pop", also called "spawling" I think? This is really my main concern and reason I used the Chimney sealant. I used the Duck Coat on the cap because when I was up there I noticed small hairline cracks already in the cement!?!?? Not willing to risk water infiltration I used the Duck Coat on the cap. Very happy with it so far as it still looks good after this winter. Several friends of mine using the same stuff and are impressed.

 

[bholler]

Yep, I used Chimney Saver which as Bholler correctly mentioned, they still breathe after applying. I used it because my chimney is brand new and I was concerned the brick would absorb a little moisture and then freeze at night and cause the brick faces to "pop", also called "spawling" I think? This is really my main concern and reason I used the Chimney sealant. I used the Duck Coat on the cap because when I was up there I noticed small hairline cracks already in the cement!?!?? Not willing to risk water infiltration I used the Duck Coat on the cap. Very happy with it so far as it still looks good after this winter. Several friends of mine using the same stuff and are impressed.

There are lots of good products out there that can be used but it the chimney is just built right and maintained properly there is no need for any of them. There is no reason for the brick to spawl unless the chimney is not built correctly and it lets water in. And the crown should have been poured out of concrete with an overhang and then there is no need to coat the crown.

 

[Jo191145]

What code is that every code i have seen says they need to have space around them. But i dont worry about that code i have never built a chimney with a clay liner and we build get stainless right away. Most chimneys i see that are mortared solid have cracks in the exterior masonry because the liner expanded and blew the outside apart. And the good chimney sealers all breathe pretty well so that is not an issue i just see no benefit in most cases

Ha ha, I knew someone would ask. We're going pretty far back in time now. Whenever the state of Connecticut would update its masonry codes my local building inspector would Xerox off the entire code book pertaining to masonry for me to peruse. Back in those days it really was the only way to find out when a change was made. There was no other type of notification.

As I said it was just in a diagram the state used. I cannot remember finding it in writing anywhere but I'm fairly certain there was no worded mention of it. My memory isn't that great but I do remember seeing the diagram. I also know I talked it over with my local inspector and told him not to expect seeing it done by me. I disagree heartily with the practice.

As for sealers breathing, my personal unscientific opinion. If it won't let water in it won't let water out. Sure sealing the cap isn't much of a problem. If someone wants to waterproof an entire outside fireplace structure I personally recommend extra coats near the top and then maintain that coating per manufacturers specs. I also agree it shouldn't need to be done but I have no real problem with top coating the cap. The only bad thing I can think of in doing that is the cap usually soaks in quite a bit of water after they've aged awhile. That water will now be shed and soaked by the bricks just under the crown. Will it make a difference? Probably not much admittedly but it might.

I do disagree on the spalling issue. There are some bricks made that shouldn't be trucked or used in northern climes. Mostly those with two distinct hardnesses. A soft body with a flash cured hard face. Just fine where there no large freeze thaw cycle. Up north your asking for disaster. Connecticuts brick manufacturers have also created some duds over the years. Just changes in the manufacturing process seemed to have created some large batches of bricks that just want to disintegrate in our climate. Some on the outside, most on the inside. I've seen batches of clay flues that can't handle the weather also.

 

[bholler]

I do disagree on the spalling issue. There are some bricks made that shouldn't be trucked or used in northern climes. Mostly those with two distinct hardnesses. A soft body with a flash cured hard face. Just fine where there no large freeze thaw cycle. Up north your asking for disaster. Connecticuts brick manufacturers have also created some duds over the years. Just changes in the manufacturing process seemed to have created some large batches of bricks that just want to disintegrate in our climate. Some on the outside, most on the inside. I've seen batches of clay flues that can't handle the weather also.

there are a few developments here and some random chimneys built in the late 70s early 80s with some glen gery brick that spall of like crazy if they are exposed to weather. They have a harder face over a softer body and they just dont work well here. But honestly i doubt sealing them would help the faces are very hard and non porous. The problems come from any tiny crack in the mortar or crown.

 

[winkle]

Can anyone tell me please if this looks right ie the unevenness of the cap edges ? They are waiting for the damper and correct top thingys, i know, i am just a homeowner...

 

[bholler]

Looks a little rough but really hard to tell from that pic

 

[winkle]

Looks a little rough but really hard to tell from that pic

click on the pic and zoom in please

 

[bholler]

cant zoom in on it sorry

 

[BrotherBart]

 

[winkle]

cant zoom in on it sorry

take a look, brother bart posted

 

[bholler]

looks pretty bad but you said they are not done right. It is hard to tell what is going on there it may just be stuff that leaked between 2 parts of the forms and it will be cleaned up. Or they may have screwed it up pretty bad when they pulled the forms.

 

[winkle]

looks pretty bad but you said they are not done right. It is hard to tell what is going on there it may just be stuff that leaked between 2 parts of the forms and it will be cleaned up. Or they may have screwed it up pretty bad when they pulled the forms.

if they screwed up how would they proceed? pretend its ok, try to ? or do they have to do it again?

 

[bholler]

If that is the bottom edge of the crown broken away there really is nothing to do other than tear it off and start again

 

[winkle]

If that is the bottom edge of the crown broken away there really is nothing to do other than tear it off and start again

thanks for all your help

 

[BrotherBart]

I think it is just ragged edges from their forms. You could grind it even if it bugs you. The top is what is important. That is the part keeping water out.

 

[bholler]

I think it is just ragged edges from their forms. You could grind it even if it bugs you. The top is what is important. That is the part keeping water out.

That may be it i cant tell but either way the pros that did it should not leave it looking like that. Functionally it is not that important no but it looks like crap

 

[Jo191145]

take a look, brother bart posted

Looks to me like they didn't pack the cement into the bottom of the form very well. Cement crowns should be a fairly stiff cement. Packing them requires some effort. Not Herculean effort just attention to detail effort. They failed.

I would ask them to grind it somewhat even. Don't look for perfection at this point.
To ask them to remove it and redo it is asking for trouble. They'll likely cause more damage to the flues and brickwork than it is worth. Or theyll skimp again and try to patch or reform slightly larger and add on. Either case is worse than what you have now.

 

[bholler]

Looks to me like they didn't pack the cement into the bottom of the form very well. Cement crowns should be a fairly stiff cement. Packing them requires some effort. Not Herculean effort just attention to detail effort. They failed.
I would ask them to grind it somewhat even. Don't look for perfection at this point.
To ask them to remove it and redo it is asking for trouble. They'll likely cause more damage to the flues and brickwork than it is worth. Or theyll skimp again and try to patch or reform slightly larger and add on. Either case is worse than what you have now

Why should the crown be out of stiff cement? That was not how i was taught at all. Also if they did it correctly there should be bond breaks every where so removing it should be pretty easy. I personally would not settle for grinding it somewhat even at all i would demand that it be right.

 

[winkle]

The manager came out yesterday to remove waste and is returning today to determine course of action, will update as decisions are made..the damper and caps are still on order and wont be here until monday...maybe.

 

[winkle]

is that as terrible as I think it is

 

[bholler]

It would not be acceptable for me if it was my house or if i had done the job. If i had done that i would tear it off and redo it no question.

 

[winkle]

It would not be acceptable for me if it was my house or if i had done the job. If i had done that i would tear it off and redo it no question.

thanks
is the base work terrible as well?

 

[bholler]

thanks
is the base work terrible as well?

doesnt look to bad it should be acid washed but not bad