Certified EPA Exempt---Means What?

[builderbob]

Starting wondering just exactly what a woodburning fireplace has to do to get the EPA to say "Certifed EPA Exempt"?

Anyone explain it in simple terms? Or even complicated terms?

builderbob

 

[littlesmokey]

Starting wondering just exactly what a woodburning fireplace has to do to get the EPA to say "Certifed EPA Exempt"?

Anyone explain it in simple terms? Or even complicated terms?

builderbob

Simply there are certain appliances that are exempt, depends on how they are classified and how they are used. Do you want to explain what has caused your confusion?

For example, my cook stove is exempt. It's where I fry my eggs and bake bad cobbler. Is not subject to rating.

 

[BrotherBart]

Wood burning appliances that cannot be choked down to less than a 35 to 1 air to fuel ratio are exempt from EPA testing and emissions certification.

If they hadn't done that every fireplace in the country would have to have been boarded up and they would have created a bunch of unhappy campers.

 

[builderbob]

So as I understand it then, EPA makes a positive statement about a particular unit that it is "EPA Certified Exempt". In order to make that positive statement and "certification", wouldn't it in fact have to require some extent of testing to know what the air to fuel to ratio is?

It is not the case that EPA is totally unaware of the unit. Rather the EPA knows the air to fuel ratio is over some predetermined ratio, and then EPA "Certifies Exempt" that unit.

I presume the more air there is in relation to fuel (in the smoke going up the chimney), the cleaner the exhaust is?

 

[BrotherBart]

The manufacturer certifies to the EPA that it is a 35 to 1 exempt appliance. EPA does not test it. They are just like fireplaces. Smokers. But the abundence of intake air means the suckers are gonna burn hot enough to be cleaner than an airtight stove choked down.

Some may come with real long warranties though. Must mean they are good.

 

[builderbob]

So "EPA Certified Exempt" means the manufacturer did the testing and certifying---not the EPA.

 

[littlesmokey]

So "EPA Certified Exempt" means the manufacturer did the testing and certifying---not the EPA.

Bob,

What are you asking? The probe is for a specific answer. If you are not an attorney, you should be, as this is a lot like a deposition. What do you want to know? You have several good answers, but that doesn't seem to satisfy, could it be a second question, "So why certify at all?" Go ahead, ask the big one, and get ready for the dump. I will not let the kitty out of the bag.

 

[builderbob]

Littlesmokey, you can ask your own questions.

I am a retired accountant shopping for a hearth product for a new home. Who are you? I did used to do tax returns on the side. Perhaps I carry over a questioning style I developed with my clients to get very personal info out of them, so I could prepare their returns in a professional manner. I don't know if that makes me sound like an attorney. Maybe it seems like it to you. Have you been sued recently or something?

But back to the subject---my question "EPA Certified Exempt--what does it Mean?" If you insist I must have some underlying question to that, try this then: ---in relation to clean or polluted air---- I would try to understand why EPA has some products "certified to meet EPA Phase II requirements" (whatever the heck they are), and why some are "EPA Certified Exempt" and what that exemption process entails.

Specifically, as to the Napoleon High Country, which their brochure says is "EPA Certified Exempt", should I understand that to mean-----this baby is a big polluter? Or, if I understand BrotherBart's comments correctly, units with enough air in relation to the bad stuff (particulate matter?) can actually burn cleaner than certified Phase II stoves.

Since the Napoleon is on our list for consideration, I would like to understand if we would be "big polluters" by buying it, or not.

Is that enough underlying questions for you?

And I would be interested in you asking your mentioned question too.

builderbob

 

[elkimmeg]

Let me take a poke at this. A fire place by nature is not certified be it a pre fab metal or masonry. Nobody comes out to your home and certifies a masonry fire place therefore it is exempt from certification

Let me explain this in terms of gas fire places there are two classes the decortive and high effeciency A decoritive class has no post effeciency rating,
meaning a lot of heat is lost up the chimney.

The high effeciency rated ones are just that 80% of the heat is tranfered or captured t and returned to the living space They are effeciency tested to earn that clasification

Deccoritive gas fire place is like the non or exempt wood burning fire placce A place to hold a fire but most of the heat escapes up the chimney again it has an air ratio of greater than 35 to one one criteria making it exempt Naturally the non exempt are cheaper less engineering involved

Not all fireplaced need to be so ineffecient If some can restrict the air flow then chances are less heat rises up the chimney more heat to the living space The rated ones are like the high effecient gass fireplaces To be certified they have to meet the EPA requirements of effeciency and polutants or Gph emmitances If you are looking for heat then you want a EPA rated fireplace
If you want resale value you are looking for an EPA rated fireplace. Naturally these rated fireplaces cost more but many are as effecient as wood stoves approching 70% effeciency meaning only 30% lost to draft

If you only want to see a fire then get the chepy steel box and forget about any heat not only will it not heat your home it stands a good chance of drawing out already heated air along with it

IT can have a negative heat effect costing you more fuel usage of your primary heating system to makeup the lost heat up the chimney Plus you will go threw quite a bit of wood forget capturing heat of a secondary burn ther will be none.

IF you want to capture heat and save fuel and reduce your dependency on your primary system you want an EPA rated stove.

I have followed your post and your decision process Want a good effecient fireplace brand quality a company that stands behind them ,one I can recomend Look at the quadra-fire products

I think a few less inches viewing area is worth going with a quality company product. I have to agree with BB about Lenox and their stability in the market place They keep buying out companies and none seem to benifit in the transaction. I made a promise to many posters not to get into brand recomendation. I broke it here.. Yes I have seen them installed I have seen them burning. I will not break another promise and recomend another company where I was in their test lab watching it being tested

If memory serve me the quadra-fire has been recomended before consider this another recomendation you wanted feed back well here is some. Can anyone please step forward and dispute quadra-fire quality in their fireplace line?

 

[begreen]

Best to go to the source for this question:

(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/compliance/monitoring/programs/caa/woodheaters.html)

Click on the "Exempt Appliances" under available brochures.

 

[builderbob]

Thanks elkimmeg, totally new point raised about considering resale value in relation to EPA certifed units.

And thanks BeGreen for the EPA link. Do I get the Fourth off before wading into all that EPA material? That link does look though, like I can find plenty of answers in there.

Happy Fourth to all!! Savor Freedom.

builderbob

 

[littlesmokey]

Littlesmokey, you can ask your own questions.

I am a retired accountant shopping for a hearth product for a new home. Who are you? I did used to do tax returns on the side. Perhaps I carry over a questioning style I developed with my clients to get very personal info out of them, so I could prepare their returns in a professional manner. I don't know if that makes me sound like an attorney. Maybe it seems like it to you. Have you been sued recently or something?

But back to the subject---my question "EPA Certified Exempt--what does it Mean?" If you insist I must have some underlying question to that, try this then: ---in relation to clean or polluted air---- I would try to understand why EPA has some products "certified to meet EPA Phase II requirements" (whatever the heck they are), and why some are "EPA Certified Exempt" and what that exemption process entails.

Specifically, as to the Napoleon High Country, which their brochure says is "EPA Certified Exempt", should I understand that to mean-----this baby is a big polluter? Or, if I understand BrotherBart's comments correctly, units with enough air in relation to the bad stuff (particulate matter?) can actually burn cleaner than certified Phase II stoves.

Since the Napoleon is on our list for consideration, I would like to understand if we would be "big polluters" by buying it, or not.

Is that enough underlying questions for you?

And I would be interested in you asking your mentioned question too.

builderbob

Never thought about accountant speak, missed that one. Have 4 CPA's in the families and I filled out tax schedules from the time I was 15 for my Dad, Uncle and Grandad. Used to do some program audits and I don't speak it well, but lose the attitude. Ask, "why do some stoves say certified and others don't and what is the difference?" Works for a lot of us. For me, you can install only EPA approved stoves in my area, that does not apply to fire places, but it's getting close to banning them. You are mixing different appliance categories, without understanding why they are different. If you are looking at an open fireplace, everyone here will tell you to look for something else. If you are trying to look at one of the nice CZ's you have to make a choice for the EPA approved. The standards are to control the emissions, and the best way is: to define a standard of air intake ratios.

Take a deep breath, tell us what you want to end up with and ask for our suggestions, better than probing the back door, because we don't understand what you want to know. Good question to start with is, " What does EPA II certified mean?" Simple, we can give you a direct answer.

You may not like me, and I don't care, but I don't like word bullies or passive aggressive jerks.

 

[builderbob]

You have a Happy Fourth, Littlesmokey.

Builderbob

 

[hearthtools]

Short and to the point
and EPA exempt fireplace is NOT EPA certified Tested by Aproved Lab and does not and/or has not been tested to meet EPA clean burning Phase II June 1, 1990 clean burning standards and has the potential to burn at over 35:1 air to fuel.
I lot of air boards will not allow a Exempt stoves or fireplaces to be installed. ONLY open burning fireplaces or EPA phase II certified appliances.
BUT>

Some Fireplaces are EPA exempt but can not show that they are over 35:1 air to fuel for the new testing is Kilograms per hour.
this is my problem with NON EPA RSF fireplaces. the Label shows EPA exempt but my Air board will not let us install it in our area because there rule is it must be a EPA appliance or a open burning fireplace with a air to fuel ratio of 35:1.
I tried to get RSF-ICC to get me a Document that said it was greater that 35:1 but they cant for all the test they have done is Kilograms per hour.
So our Air board will not this Exempt fireplace that is tested as clean burning but not EPA certified as clean burning to be installed. Unless I put the $400 Cat kit in it.
Im not going to do this because it brings the cost up way to high for a Mid size heater.
I have one in my showroom I need to get rid of.

 

[builderbob]

Thanks Rod. So I am getting the impression then that "Exempt" units can, in fact, be as clean, or even cleaner burning, than units which meet EPA Phase II. Just because a unit is "Exempt" does not mean it is, by definition, a polluter in comparison.

But you are also saying (if I am understanding you correctly) there have at times arisen some technicalities where certain units, which are in fact, clean burning, could not -- due soley to technicalities -- get the "EPA" Certified Exempt label. And in certain areas, like yours, the lack of that EPA label means the local authorities won't approve for install.

Thanks all, for all the answers and links. Not a simple business, I can see!! And I just started out thinking about a new house and "wouldn't it be nice to just have a nice fire to enjoy and take the chill off".

Happy Fourth all.

builderbob

 

[hearthtools]

Thanks Rod. So I am getting the impression then that "Exempt" units can, in fact, be as clean, or even cleaner burning, than units which meet EPA Phase II. Just because a unit is "Exempt" does not mean it is, by definition, a polluter in comparison.

But you are also saying (if I am understanding you correctly) there have at times arisen some technicalities where certain units, which are in fact, clean burning, could not -- due soley to technicalities -- get the "EPA" Certified Exempt label. And in certain areas, like yours, the lack of that EPA label means the local authorities won't approve for install.

Thanks all, for all the answers and links. Not a simple business, I can see!! And I just started out thinking about a new house and "wouldn't it be nice to just have a nice fire to enjoy and take the chill off".

Happy Fourth all.

builderbob

Fun and games.
yes the hearth business is not just putting heat in a home any more.
it is all about putting a attractive, SAFE clean burning fire in Homes.
Not like the old days of the ugly Metal Fisher steel boxes. If that was the case I would not need almost 50 units on my showroom.

Sort of
From what I understand is the RSF units that are TESTED to show clean #'s but not Certified EPA phase II due to the fact of the Large firebox and Large doors.
this is what I was told why some of the larger RSF units are not EPA certified but they provide "as clean as testing results"

Also MOST EPA excempt stoves are NOT CLEAN or CLEANER. they are just NON air tight stoves with an air to fuel of over 35:1
STAY WAY FROM ALL OF THEM you might have a problem selling your home in the future with out havening to remove it or make it inoperable.

 

[thechimneysweep]

This question comes in so often from visitors to our site that we've published it in our Sweep's Library. You can read it online at (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoexempt.htm)

 

[builderbob]

This question comes in so often from visitors to our site that we've published it in our Sweep's Library. You can read it online at (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoexempt.htm)

Thanks Tom, very helpful answers, and I am bookmarking your site to read some of your other info. Glad to know I wasn't the only one asking the question. I will delve into EPA site too, to try and further understand their procedures and "certifications" and "exemptions".

The answers, info, insights, and good links that constantly pop up at this forum from all you folks do help shoppers like me.

builderbob

 

[webbie]

A search for even the word "exempt" in this forum brought up numerous threads, including this one:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6868/

and many others.

No problem with questions here, but self-help should always be fully used until you reach the dead-end.
Some discussion about it also in our QA as well..Wouldn't be a bad idea to put together a wiki article on it using the info scattered around in these threads!

 

[builderbob]

Craig, I was just doing a search of the Q and A's on this very subject as you spoke!! ESP.

But as a newbie, pardon, what's a WIKI?

builderbob

 

[webbie]

Not much on the Q and A - but a lot here in the forums...use the search box.

The Wiki is where YOU (or any registered member) can create, edit or add to articles.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/

Here are current titles:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Special:Titles

Sort of a catch-all for history, definitions, user-written articles, etc.

and, of course, instructions:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Wiki_General_Instructions/

 

[webbie]

Here is a Wiki article which I just put together from this and other threads. Anyone can feel free to add/edit, etc.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/EPA_Exempt_Stoves/

 

[builderbob]

I am beginning to understand "exempt". Thanks for the article.

builderbob

 

[stoveguy2esw]

So "EPA Certified Exempt" means the manufacturer did the testing and certifying---not the EPA.

actually the testing agency determines that the unit will meet 35-1 , and other criteria for exempt status , the stove must still pass the safety testing that all units must pass, but when presenting a unit for testing , the testing lab is aware that the unit is being tested for exempt status and the lab then ensures that it meets all requirements to include Ul or ULC if specified.

 

[Gooserider]

My understanding is that the EPA itself does NOT test ANY stoves normally.

Rather they publish a specification, and the same folks that do the safety testing also test to see if it meets the EPA specs either as "EPA-II Compliant" with appropriate rating numbers, OR that they meet the standard for "EPA Exempt"

This is fairly standard throughout the Certification Industry. There are different entities that write standards, be they governmental like the EPA, or private like UL, Bellcore, CSA, and the endless alphabet soup of private industry specs. Then there are "Compliance Houses" like Omni or Warnock Hersey for stoves, or Curtis-Strauss for electronics, that have been recognized by the standards writers as being technically capable of testing for compliance with a given standard, and as being "incorruptibly honest" enough not to cheat on the test and approve a product that doesn't actually pass muster...

A few places like VC have gotten themselves setup with compliance labs to do in-house testing, but from what we were told during our tour, they still have to bring in outside agency folks to supervise any "official" certification test runs.

In my old job I had a few occasions where I got sent to the compliance house to "baby-sit" some of our equipment as it was being tested, this included operating the equipment itself, fixing problems, sometimes arguing with the test engineers if you thought a test wasn't being performed properly (The unit had redundant power feeds, I had one test where the guy only hooked up one feed, and failed us because we couldn't take a voltage dropout in that feed. I had to point out that the test required BOTH feeds to be present in order to be passed...), and occasionally helping to interface between their test engineers and our design engineers if there was a real problem... It was lots of fun, and possibly one of the coolest things was to see all the OTHER stuff that was getting tested - neat technology, though we weren't allowed to tell anyone about what we saw.

This is somewhat irrelevant to the original question, but it may help to understand how the process itself works.

Gooserider