Ceiling height calamity...

[Mr. Kelly]

Ok, all you stove junkies, and helpers extraordinaire... Here is the update to my "calamity".

If you recall, Lopi stoves, as well as Pacific Energy and Napoleon (as well as others, I'm sure), mandate a7' ceiling clearance. Our old house has 6'10", or so. Uggghhh.

I had been wanting a Lopi Endeavor or Republic 1750, and had the hearth for these measurements already framed in, until I saw the ceiling restriction in the owner's manual. It called for "alcove" clearances, which is 3.5 inches of suspended non-combustible material on all surrounding walls and ceilings, plus the one-inch air space. That was a killer.

My whole project came to a grinding halt. I was a little discouraged, to tell you the truth, with the likelihood of much more work, and some that seemed to not jive with the space. I was a little depressed about it. But... I usually can figure out a way to dig myself out of holes like these, so this is where we're at with it right now...

Zapny on here was kind enough to find me an email to a customer service rep at Lopi. I emailed him, and I'll let you interpret his response, as my wife and I see that it could be interpreted a couple of ways... here's the rep's response:

--------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Kelly,

Thank you for your interest and inquiry into our product. What you need to do to make this a safe install is following: Use a non-combustible shield (such as the one you mentioned the dealer offered) with a min. width of 36”x 48” deep. You will need the 1” air space that will act as a cooling chamber between the shield and the combustible material in the ceiling. As far as the min. 3.5 “ thick non-combustible material, it doesn’t have to be brick. You can use metal studs and essentially make a drop ceiling that will give you the 1” clearance while utilizing the metal framing with cement board that you may apply tile, granite, slate or other types of non-combustible material. You have options and can indeed make this application work. I hope this helps and talk with Zap further on the option I mentioned, thanks!


Christian Hale [[email protected]]


---------------------------------------------------------

So... stove people... did you read this as I did, which was that I could use either the ceiling mounted heat shield or the 3.5 in. non-combustible material? My wife thinks that he's still holding firm to the need to go with thicker material? What's your take?

I'll email him back again, to clarify, but it took a handful of days to hear back from him, and you guys are much quicker!

Plus, I'll be talking with the local fire chief on Monday, so I suspect he'll have his take on it also.


Hope you guys are having a nice Sunday!

 

[begreen]

That's sort of a 'maybe' response. It would be better to get a specific suggestion. I would think that any non combustible shielding would be ok as long as it had the air space. Given the low head room, I'd consider using a sheet of stiff sheet metal. It works well for mantle shields. You might be able to find decorative tin to make it look a bit better.

Ask the Lopi rep and your inspector a specific question like - Can I use a heat shield made of a 22 gauge, 38" x 50" piece of metal on 1" ceramic spacers mounted directly over the stove? That should get you closer to a yes or no response.

 

[madison]

If I recall, when I designed our hearth, the PE (t6) ceiling clearance was 54", which like yourself I never considered measuring until after the hearth was done, lucky as it was fine, but closer than what I thought when all was completed....

 

[Mr. Kelly]

If I recall, when I designed our hearth, the PE (t6) ceiling clearance was 54", which like yourself I never considered measuring until after the hearth was done, lucky as it was fine, but closer than what I thought when all was completed....

It's a good thing you did it when you did. It's now 84", and by what the dealer said, EPA is going to "toughen up" clearance regs. Maybe we should just be making houses out of steel.

 

[madison]

Thanks, I think that the minimum ceiling height was there all along and I never worried since we have 8 ft ceilings.

BUT I interpret the clearances as, you need floor to ceiling height of 7 feet, NOT top of hearth to ceiling of 7 feet. But you need to meet the top of unit to ceiling clearances with the raised hearth.
Page 9, http://www.pacificenergy.net/PDF/manuals/T4-5-6-261107-28(W).pdf NOTE the link is to a pdf file which does not seem to work correctly.

Bottom line, for everyone researching stove purchases, read and reread the stove manual clearances.

PE Alderlea Top of unit to ceiling clearances.
T4 - 56 3/4” (1441 mm)
T5 - 55 1/4” (1403 mm)
T6 - 56 1/2” (1409 mm)

 

[Mr. Kelly]

That's good info for future stove purchasers, Madison.

I made the mistake of using the company's online clearance information, which was not as thorough as the manual clearance info. So let that be a "BEWARE" to anyone researching clearances... go right to the main source... the OWNER'S MANUAL!!

 

[madison]

Indeed, and if you read some the issues in some other threads, ie Tickbittys, where manuals do not come with used stoves, or failure to research the purchase. Ouch! I for one would not want to move, much less purchase, a woodstove more than once if I could avoid it.

 

[jadm]

. Maybe we should just be making houses out of steel.

I have a sister who lives in Wisconsin. Her house is made out of cement No stove though. I'm the only one in the family with one.

 

[seaken]

Hi all,

It figures... pick out a stove awhile ago that I planned on purchasing today. I read most of the manual online quite awhile ago, to determine all of my clearances. Now, after I have the hearth mostly built for it, I reread the clearance requirements just to make sure, and NOW I notice, in fine print I might add, that the ceiling height minimum is 7'. I would have never imagined that my very old house has a ceiling height of 4" short of that, at about 6'8''. I just didn't even think of measuring that. One would think that all ceilings are at least 7" tall. But, you know what they say about assuming anything.

Geeze. That's a bomb. I know, I know, that was dumb.

So, the manual says that if the ceiling height is less than 7', the unit must be installed according to alcove clearances, which mandate a ceiling of at least 3.5" thick with a one inch ventilation space. I cannot imagine how I'll do this, considering it's a friggin' dining room.

Any suggestions? Will I have to attach a frame of some sorts to the ceiling of the room and put some sort of material up there? What in heck can I use that's 3.5" thick that won't be too heavy to keep up there?

Anybody on here that's encountered an alcove install, or very short ceiling heights! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


Thanks for reading... as usual.

Mr. Kelly,

Don't feel bad. I've been installing Lopi stoves for twenty years and I got caught with this exact same dilemma. The 7 foot ceiling height is a recent addition to the manuals. Before my install crew pointed it out to me I did not usually take note of the ceiling height. I now am very careful to measure ceiling height to avoid further difficulties. I had sold the Republic 1750 and the installation for a customer and my installers decided the stove would not fit because the ceiling was less than 7 feet from the floor. Needless to say the customer was not pleased. I learned my lesson and now carefully consider the ceiling height for every job.

We did come up with a solution for the "Alcove" and the stove was finally installed safely and in use to this day. But not without a lot of frustration similar to what you are going through. The manual is not clear and seems to require a rediculous 3-1/2" ceiling protection. From what you reported on what the Travis rep said they seem to have come to the same conclusion as I did. All they need to do now is re-write the manual. Suffice to say that you can use any "equivalent" protection, that is, any protection that has the same amount of thermal protection that would be present if using a 3-1/2" brick mass with an integrated 1" air space.

See my next post for our conclusion and current policy regarding this issue. Hope this helps.

Sean

 

[seaken]

This is a copy of our write-up after researching this issue. We have adopted this as our policy for dealing with unclear instructions for alcoves. We are comfortable using materials that are "equivalent" to what is stated in the manual.

Sean

-----
Memo: Reducing clearances to a ceiling

While undertaking a recent wood stove installation we observed that the installation instructions dictated that alternate clearance must be used when installed in a room with less than 7 feet of height from the floor. Up until this time we had routinely installed wood stoves without consideration to the ceiling height, instead considering only the standard clearance requirements from the surface of the stove. NFPA 211 specifies 36” of clearance from all surfaces of the appliance, the ceiling included. Using this standard clearance as a guide we would not normally be concerned about any ceiling heights since most ceilings are at least 6 feet high and most stove are far less than 36” in height.

The particular stove we were installing specified that any ceilings under 7 feet were to be considered as if it was an “alcove” and the alcove clearance charts and special requirements were to be observed. The manual specified that the “alcove” “must have walls and a ceiling that are 3-1/2” thick of a non-combustible material (brick, stone, or concrete). This non-combustible material must be spaced and ventilated at least 1” off all combustible materials.” The diagram shows the construction of the 3-1/2” thick brick wall spaced 1” off the combustible wall and is captioned “Non-combustible alcove construction (on walls and ceiling)”.

We find this requirement to use 3-1/2” material strange since NFPA 211 clearly outlines other more effective alternatives for reducing clearances. In fact, NFPA 211 specifically suggests that 3-1/2” bricks are “not expected to be used as ceiling protection”. After careful review of the installation instructions and the NFPA 211 document we feel justified in choosing one of the alternatives outlined in NFPA 211 for reducing ceiling clearances. The most effective solution for a ceiling is to use 1/2” cement board with a 1” ventilated air space. This is listed in NFPA 211 as an equivalent to the 3-1/2” brick with a 1” air space.

Interestingly, we found at least one wood stove that allowed as little as 72” of ceiling height without additional ceiling protection. Most of our stove manuals do not specify a ceiling height at all. Apparently the manufacturer of our stove in question has chosen to accept a default as outlined in the specifications for UL Standard 1482. It seems strange that all our other stoves are also tested to the same UL 1482 standard yet they do not specify a minimum ceiling height. We cannot say for sure why this manufacturer has chosen to present this limit. We are only concerned that they have also chosen to be specific as to what materials can be used for protection. Clearly, the use of 3-1/2” brick for ceiling protection is impractical. We accept the 7 foot minimum ceiling height and we suggest that an acceptable solution to protect both the walls and ceiling is any “equivalent” to the 3-1/2” brick, which would include 1/2” cement board, or even sheet-metal with ceramic wool insulation.

For reference, please consult pages 40 through 43 of the 2006 version of the NFPA 211 document. This document is accepted by most, if not all, local jurisdictions as an acceptable building code.

 

[Mr. Kelly]

Sean, you left a very potent post. Thank you hugely for sharing your frustration and your story. It is exactly where I'm at.

One thing that I'm still unclear about, in particular with Travis stoves... do they really expect you to use all alcove clearances if only the ceiling height doesn't meet clearance? I still haven't found a clear answer to that. If I connect all the dots, including some of yours, I suspect I'd only need to put the heat shield on the ceiling, and ignore all the other ridiculous expectation of walls, and other combustibles. After all, all my other clearances are all within range.

Is this what you do for your installs now? If it's less than 7' ceiling height, do you just shield the ceiling?

Thank you again for your interest in my plight!

BTW, your website looks great! Too bad your shop is way off my beaten path up here in MA. You seem to be able to carry almost all decent stoves there. Up here, each dealer only has a couple of brands that they focus on. So, to see a good variety, you have to travel to a lot of dealers!

 

[seaken]

Sean, you left a very potent post. Thank you hugely for sharing your frustration and your story. It is exactly where I'm at.

One thing that I'm still unclear about, in particular with Travis stoves... do they really expect you to use all alcove clearances if only the ceiling height doesn't meet clearance? I still haven't found a clear answer to that. If I connect all the dots, including some of yours, I suspect I'd only need to put the heat shield on the ceiling, and ignore all the other ridiculous expectation of walls, and other combustibles. After all, all my other clearances are all within range.

Is this what you do for your installs now? If it's less than 7' ceiling height, do you just shield the ceiling?

Thank you again for your interest in my plight!

BTW, your website looks great! Too bad your shop is way off my beaten path up here in MA. You seem to be able to carry almost all decent stoves there. Up here, each dealer only has a couple of brands that they focus on. So, to see a good variety, you have to travel to a lot of dealers!

You should use both wall and ceiling shields and low-clearance pipe. It's an all or nothing type of thing. Either it's an alcove or it isn't.

Sean

 

[kevin72bearvly]

Hey, Don't know if anyone is still interested since it's been a few weeks since someone posted last, but I have been having the exact problem. I had a LOPI stove for 22 years that ended up being destroyed in a flood that destroyed most of the interior of the house. I have been looking for a new stove and came to realize that all the new stoves require 7 foot clearences. Finally, after hours and hours of searching I have come across a couple units that will work with 6 foot ceiling clearences.

The first is the Lennox Country collection, Striker S160. This is almost identical to the old Lopi stove I had in size and BTU output wich was a must because my cabin is about a 1000 sf and I use it to heat the house to save on natural gas. This meets all codes and needs only a 6 foot ceiling clearence if you use a double walled pipe through the roof.

The second is a Regency, Hampton cast iron stove model H200. This meets all requirements too but puts out a lot less BTU's.
For more info. on either of these stoves go to Regency fireplaces or Lennox fireplaces online. Both also have the owners manuals online so you can see the specs for yourself.
Hope this helps anyone who has low ceiling clearence issues.
Kevin

 

[WidowMaker]

In defense of Travis Industries or Lopi on page 8 in the PDF file it is not in small print.


(broken link removed to http://www.lopistoves.com/TravisDocs/100-01179.pdf)


Zap

===

Just for the he77 of it I got out my owners manual for My Endeavor purchased in 1999. Manual dated May 1996???? The 84" requirement is there and no it's not in small print...but I had never noticed it before an I've read this manual several times...so it's nothing new....just sayin...

 

[kevin72bearvly]

no idea who your referencing that to....

 

[Mr. Kelly]

Hey there...

I finally bought a Pacific Energy Summit (delivered and installed next Thursday), which also, arguably, claims a 7' ceiling height in the owner's manual, although it could be interpreted that the figure in reference (fig.2) is for mobile home installation. The residential portion of the manual doesn't specifiy. So, I'm going for it, with 2" shy of 7'. Nobody at the various dealers or the building inspector has said that they've denied or been denied passing inspection because of a couple of inches of ceiling height. Plus, the building inspector says he typically goes by Mass. code, which, from my understanding, acknowledges the NFPS suggestions and guidelines. This document, if I understand correctly, states something like... 36" from the top of the stove to the ceiling. If this is true, I should be fine. If not, the dealer said he'd install a steel plate suspended from the ceiling and just charge me for the materials, which I suspect will be about $100.00. That's great! So, I feel confident, one way or the other. We'll see when it's inspected... probably after the holiday, as we'll be away for 10 days... ugghhh... a virgin stove just sitting there... unused... unstoked.... unfired up. Seems like a travesty!

Happy Holidays!