CB 5036 Quote. Sound fair?

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Either will burn pine OK. I'd probably recommend the GARN as it runs with lots of excess secondary air, which will allow the fast burning pine to off-gas and burn more completely. if you were going with a downdraft (the TARM is a downdraft style) I think you'd want something that has an 02 sensor that will modulate the primary and secondary air.

FYI the GARN has ports for electric elements and controls available to do off peak or on peak electric heating. no need for an extra boiler.
karl

PS, keep in mind that the heat output is directly related to the pounds of wood that you can put into the boiler. pine weighs less per volume than most hardwoods.
 
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Honest question - is a Garn the best choice for an HX-in-plenum install? From the scattered reading I've done, I was thinking it wasn't, because of less stratification & longer time to get the hottest water out of it on fire startup. Think I've read it's the cats meow for lower temp (radiant) installs, but not so much for hotter temp apps? I could be wrong though.

(Bordering on a side track....)
 
maple1 said:
Honest question - is a Garn the best choice for an HX-in-plenum install? From the scattered reading I've done, I was thinking it wasn't, because of less stratification & longer time to get the hottest water out of it on fire startup. Think I've read it's the cats meow for lower temp (radiant) installs, but not so much for hotter temp apps? I could be wrong though.

(Bordering on a side track....)
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the honest answer is: it depends. depends on the size of the coil, the furnace, the ductwork, and the water temp. like any non-cycling, storage based device, work with as low temp water as you can. I'll limit it there so as not to Derail the conversation.
 
Karl_northwind said:
Either will burn pine OK. I'd probably recommend the GARN as it runs with lots of excess secondary air, which will allow the fast burning pine to off-gas and burn more completely. if you were going with a downdraft (the TARM is a downdraft style) I think you'd want something that has an 02 sensor that will modulate the primary and secondary air.

FYI the GARN has ports for electric elements and controls available to do off peak or on peak electric heating. no need for an extra boiler.
karl

PS, keep in mind that the heat output is directly related to the pounds of wood that you can put into the boiler. pine weighs less per volume than most hardwoods.
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My preference would be to burn well seasoned hardwood. I just happen to also have a large stand of diseased pine - much of it standing dead - which I need to clean up. So I might as well burn it. I can always run with a mix of hard/soft until it is gone if the pine burns too fast. Thanks for the input!
 
maple1 said:
Honest question - is a Garn the best choice for an HX-in-plenum install? From the scattered reading I've done, I was thinking it wasn't, because of less stratification & longer time to get the hottest water out of it on fire startup. Think I've read it's the cats meow for lower temp (radiant) installs, but not so much for hotter temp apps? I could be wrong though.

(Bordering on a side track....)
Click to expand...

Now you guys are going over my head. I have lots more to learn obviously! lol
 
funbus said:
Now you guys are going over my head. I have lots more to learn obviously! lol
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maple1 said:
Honest question - is a Garn the best choice for an HX-in-plenum install? From the scattered reading I've done, I was thinking it wasn't, because of less stratification & longer time to get the hottest water out of it on fire startup. Think I've read it's the cats meow for lower temp (radiant) installs, but not so much for hotter temp apps? I could be wrong though.

(Bordering on a side track....)
Click to expand...
I lean towards no. That is the one thing I don't like about the garn. I feel a properly set up gasifacation unit with external storage would be able to better maintain a constant temperature to the load. A fluctuating discharge temp will translate to different run times on the air handler all the time.

What I don't know about the garn, is how well it would be able to maintain tank temperature. I have never seen, much less operated one.
 
Another question on electric backup. We could keep our current oil furnace but it would be nice to get rid of it completely. If we were to go with electric backup, what would our requirements be? We currently only have 100 amp service to the house so I am not sure if we would be able to go with electric backup. Anybody know anything about this? Thanks again.
 
Garn Jr in Ontario = $12,189 with horizontal flue kit and water treatment program. To that price you would have to add brokerage fees, some shipping, import duties/tax
Figure $14K for a ball park number

A Garn can and does work very well with a forced air system provided the appropriate hot water coil for the furnace plenum is installed. Size that piece up so it will provide adequate heat with 130-140* water and you are all set. We have lot's of them running in that scenario.
People get into trouble even with constant temperature systems when the hot water coil is sized improperly or there is not enough flow from the boiler.

As always, the devil is in the details.
 
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funbus said:
My preference would be to burn well seasoned hardwood. I just happen to also have a large stand of diseased pine - much of it standing dead - which I need to clean up. So I might as well burn it. I can always run with a mix of hard/soft until it is gone if the pine burns too fast. Thanks for the input!
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The last four years I burned a mix of red pine and oak in my Econoburn. It actually works really well.

gg
 
funbus said:
How much storage does your tarm and storage take flyingcow? I think I can build a 10x10' outbuilding without planning permission. Can even cheat a little since we are rural and neighbours are distant. Much bigger though and I would need to get planning permission. Actually it is 100 sf allowance so could be 9x12 or another configuration. Once concern I have with an outbuilding is the underground trenching if we have to go any distance from the house. We have a lot of bedrock!
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Won't you have the same bedrock problem with a OWB? I think you would want to go farther away with a OWB due to smoldering smoke issues. The gasifiers in a building could be close to home. WIth storage I run 2-8 hours of the day and it is smoke free when burning.

In the summer when heating my pool you have to look at the stack to see the heat mirage to know that it is running.

gg
 
goosegunner said:
Won't you have the same bedrock problem with a OWB? I think you would want to go farther away with a OWB due to smoldering smoke issues. The gasifiers in a building could be close to home. WIth storage I run 2-8 hours of the day and it is smoke free when burning.

In the summer when heating my pool you have to look at the stack to see the heat mirage to know that it is running.

gg
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I have a heated water line that runs to my barn and I could put an owb inline with that. That is a bad spot for me to build an out building though as it is right beside the driveway and is a bit prone to flood. I could look into a lean-to next to my attached garage perhaps.
 
funbus said:
Another question on electric backup. We could keep our current oil furnace but it would be nice to get rid of it completely. If we were to go with electric backup, what would our requirements be? We currently only have 100 amp service to the house so I am not sure if we would be able to go with electric backup. Anybody know anything about this? Thanks again.
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100 amp service will likely be an issue, yes. My electric boiler required a 100 amp breaker, because it had a rating on the tag of 82 amps. Even though its measured draw was 'only' 72 amps after installed and with all elements drawing. It is a 18kw boiler (I think) - bigger than I needed but I got a real good deal on it. If I was buying a new one to use, I would likely get something in the 12kw range, which would be around 50 amps.
 
maple1 said:
100 amp service will likely be an issue, yes. My electric boiler required a 100 amp breaker, because it had a rating on the tag of 82 amps. Even though its measured draw was 'only' 72 amps after installed and with all elements drawing. It is a 18kw boiler (I think) - bigger than I needed but I got a real good deal on it. If I was buying a new one to use, I would likely get something in the 12kw range, which would be around 50 amps.
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cool, thanks
 
Tarm is the brand i bought. many other brands out there that do just as well. I have 820 gals of storage in a box that 7x7x4ft high. Storage is in my basement, boiler is next door. Unattached building. My boiler room is 8x12ft. decent amount of room. Insulated, no other heat in it. But i did run a 3 inch PVC pipe between house and boiler room, just as a what if i need this? pipe.

You don't need storage. It is a bit more efficient, but it's more for convenience, for me. Avg winter day, i start one fire a day. Sub zero days? Maybe twice a day? but not very often. In most gasser set up's, with storage, it takes maybe 10 minutes to start a fire and walk away. thats all i do. in the spring one fire every 2 or 3 days. In the summer, one fire every 4 to 5 days for DHW. I have a wife and 3 teens.

I will recommend looking at a garn also. It's in the same ballpark, as for price, and it's an all in one set up. But, take your time and enjoy this site.

Good group here....But them boys from nova scotia, you keep an eye on them. They're a little too close the the Newfie Screech fire water. :p
 
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flyingcow said:
Tarm is the brand i bought. many other brands out there that do just as well. I have 820 gals of storage in a box that 7x7x4ft high. Storage is in my basement, boiler is next door. Unattached building. My boiler room is 8x12ft. decent amount of room. Insulated, no other heat in it. But i did run a 3 inch PVC pipe between house and boiler room, just as a what if i need this? pipe.

You don't need storage. It is a bit more efficient, but it's more for convenience, for me. Avg winter day, i start one fire a day. Sub zero days? Maybe twice a day? but not very often. In most gasser set up's, with storage, it takes maybe 10 minutes to start a fire and walk away. thats all i do. in the spring one fire every 2 or 3 days. In the summer, one fire every 4 to 5 days for DHW. I have a wife and 3 teens.

I will recommend looking at a garn also. It's in the same ballpark, as for price, and it's an all in one set up. But, take your time and enjoy this site.

Good group here....But them boys from nova scotia, you keep an eye on them. They're a little too close the the Newfie Screech fire water. :p
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That's some great info FC -really appreciate. I like the concept of your setup. Do you pipe underground into the house or above grade? That size shed would work for me. My neighbour has a Empyre gasser but no storage so he hooks the water tank back up to the electric mains in summer. Like the idea of heating our water year round since it is currently an electric tank and expensive.

The one thing I am struggling with is how do I get a storage that size into my basement that only has conventional sized doors to access? Maybe multiple smaller tanks in series?
 
flyingcow said:
Forgot to mention.....SEASONED FIREWOOD. No green wood in a gasser. Seasoned for at least one year, preferably two yrs or more. Makes a huge difference
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It seasons faster if it is standing dead wood though right? Basically everything I am taking will be standing dead.

I have a cousin from NS and a buddy from Cape Breton so I know what you mean. Great bunch of boys those east coasters!
 
funbus said:
The one thing I am struggling with is how do I get a storage that size into my basement that only has conventional sized doors to access? Maybe multiple smaller tanks in series?
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You can use unpressureized storage, TomInMaine sells them, basically a rubber (proprietary) lined fold uptank with copper coils in it. These can be brought in through a regular sized door and setup in basement. Several on here have them.

TS
 
BoilerMan said:
You can use unpressureized storage, TomInMaine sells them, basically a rubber (proprietary) lined fold uptank with copper coils in it. These can be brought in through a regular sized door and setup in basement. Several on here have them.

TS
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Sounds interesting. I would have to see an example. Googled tominmaine but didn't seem to find that. Thanks
 
You might look for smaller old propane tanks that would fit thru the door. Pressurized will deliver a more usable heat per gal of storage to the air handler than a unpressurized tank because of the extra heat exchanges. Tom can give a better answer on this, maybe making a bigger tank like 1500 gal will overcome this and be something that will fit thru the basement door.
 
My piping is exposed in the garage, then runs to the house. Once it leaves the garage it drops underground, for about 35ft. It's all Thermopex piping. I think it works well.
 
funbus said:
Thanks maple1. That sounds doable. We are at work during the day so would probably throw wood on in the morning as well. Good to know pine is fine if seasoned.

We don't have propane so would probably go with the electric backup. I'd say in a typical winter we would only be away twice for a maximum of 3-4 days each.

If the boiler is in the out building and the storage internal, would you need to heat the outbuilding at all? I would assume the boiler would provide enough ambient heat to keep it from freezing up? Sorry, probably a stupid question. But if I went with a garn externally would it need to have the building heated?
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there should be enough ambient heat to keep everything nice and warm. My boiler room is usually 80 F or warmer and its in a shed outside. If you were going to leave for a week, you could just put a small electric space heater in the room.
 
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