Cat vs Non-cat

[Todd]

The Fireview’s rating you posted is the EPA’s default of 72%. Woodstock said their independent cordwood is 77%-80%
The Homestead EPA default is 63%. Cordwood is 74%

Which wouldn't translate into 1/4 less wood. Something else is amiss.

My neighbor's blaze king princess cat stove goes through almost the same amount of wood as my Quad non-cat every winter. (About 4 cord from September to May).

Our homes have similar layouts and he used the same 6" liner I used on his stove.

No, I think your right. I went through about 4 cord with the Homestead give or take, and it's looking like close to 3 this year with the Fireview. Which is about 1/4 less wood.

 

[Roospike]

And yes it was me that had to replace my cat after only one year. I admit user error. I was trying to tweek every ounce of efficiency out of this thing and screwed up. But Woodstock replaced it for free.

Did you try to extract every ounce of efficiency out of your previous stove? Yes.

Change wood type? No

Change flue size?

No

I was engaging the cat too soon causing thermo shock.....I think? As soon as my probe thermometer said 500 I would engage thinking it was good to go. So I'm thinking some of my wood wasn't quite dry enough and sent steam up through the hotter cat. Or a lesser possibility was a defective cat? Now I wait 10-20 minutes before engagment.

So with that said would you agree that a 380° light off temp on a cat is a moot point ?

I think its one thing to have a stove running along and even being around coal stage and be 300° surface temp but again this whole debate on light off temp isn't really doing anybody any good on real world heating.

And Todd , there is nothing wrong with trying to get every bit of energy out of your wood and stove. I noticed a big difference on my non-cat stove between 1 year , 2 year and 4 years seasoned wood. Actually i get a lot more secondary burn with 1 and 2 year seasoned wood then i do with 4 years seasoned wood. So whats better ? dont know but thats how the stove changes between woods and it burns about the same amount per year.(with adjustment per the user) The wood is going to make such a big difference on how a stove runs ya just have to learn to let the stove teach you how it wants to run .

 

[Todd]

The Woodstock Fireview Soapstone Wood Stove

DIMENSIONS & SPECIFICATIONS

Dimensions (HxWxD)….….…..…...............................….28” x 26” x 20”
Weight: 475 lbs Firebox: 14.5 x 13 x 20”
Flue Exit: Rear Flue Height (center): 23.25”
Flue Size: 6” Area Heated: 900-1,600 sq. ft.
Wood Length: 16” Burn Time: 10-12 hrs.
Wood Loading:.................................................................................Side
Draft Control:...............................................................................Manual
Max Heat Output: ….….….….….…...............................55,000 BTUs /hr.
Catalytic Combustor:…….……………….....................................Standard
EPA Certified: YES.................................................EPA Efficiency: 72%
EPA Emission Rating:…….….….….…................................….1.3 gms/hr
Back Clearance:..…….….….….….….….……................................….30”
Side Clearance:..................................................................................18”
Back Clearance w/Heat Shield:….….……..............................……......18”
Mobile Home Approved

*********************************************************************

I cant find the 78%-80% efficiency ? Not to say that it isn't listed , i just cant find it. Were not dog piling on you Todd , I think this whole thread turned into a microscope debate. ;-)

You won't find it on their site. I asked one of the techs why they use the EPA numbers, and he stated that there too many variables and no standard in cordwood testing so they just went with the EPA number. But he did say the fireview has been tested at 77-80%

 

[Todd]

And yes it was me that had to replace my cat after only one year. I admit user error. I was trying to tweek every ounce of efficiency out of this thing and screwed up. But Woodstock replaced it for free.

Did you try to extract every ounce of efficiency out of your previous stove? Yes.

Change wood type? No

Change flue size?

No

I was engaging the cat too soon causing thermo shock.....I think? As soon as my probe thermometer said 500 I would engage thinking it was good to go. So I'm thinking some of my wood wasn't quite dry enough and sent steam up through the hotter cat. Or a lesser possibility was a defective cat? Now I wait 10-20 minutes before engagment.

So with that said would you agree that a 380° light off temp on a cat is a moot point ?

I think its one thing to have a stove running along and even being around coal stage and be 300° surface temp but again this whole debate on light off temp isn't really doing anybody any good on real world heating.

And Todd , there is nothing wrong with trying to get every bit of energy out of your wood and stove. I noticed a big difference on my non-cat stove between 1 year , 2 year and 4 years seasoned wood. Actually i get a lot more secondary burn with 1 and 2 year seasoned wood then i do with 4 years seasoned wood. So whats better ? dont know but thats how the stove changes between woods and it burns about the same amount per year.(with adjustment per the user) The wood is going to make such a big difference on how a stove runs ya just have to learn to let the stove teach you how it wants to run .

I agree, Once lit off it burns and temps rise. I'm still learning on this stove and thanks to all you guys for helping.

 

[TMonter]

I think the techs were likely overstating efficiency on cordwood. Theoretical efficiency of wood at 18% moisture content and a flue gas temperature of 300 is right at 81% with no unburnt carbon or other losses.

 

[Roospike]

You won't find it on their site. I asked one of the techs why they use the EPA numbers, and he stated that there too many variables and no standard in cordwood testing so they just went with the EPA number. But he did say the fireview has been tested at 77-80%

I think this statement says it best with cat vs cat , stove vs stove , wood vs wood and user vs user.

It would be hard as he(( to come up with any set standard per how one stove performs with all the variables.

 

[BrotherBart]

Well, I failed. I have to retake Wood Burning 101. It ain't near as cold here as where any of you guys are and by the end of March I will have torched six cords. One for the little dude in the office and the same old five for the house that the old pre-EPA stove burned. Lot warmer in the house than before though.

As far as cats go, I just feed the one the wife has. And dream of throwing the little a-hole into the non-cat stoves.

 

[Roospike]

I think the techs were likely overstating efficiency on cordwood. Theoretical efficiency of wood at 18% moisture content and a flue gas temperature of 300 is right at 81% with no unburnt carbon or other losses.

You know your numbers ,Ya bought a Husqvarna 372XP , your a purity smart feller TMonter , now if you would of only bought a PE Summit we might of had to call you a GOD . ;-P

 

[Roospike]

Well, I failed. I have to retake Wood Burning 101. It ain't near as cold here as where any of you guys are and by the end of March I will have torched six cords. One for the little dude in the office and the same old five for the house that the old pre-EPA stove burned. Lot warmer in the house than before though.

As far as cats go, I just feed the one the wife has. And dream of throwing the little a-hole into the non-cat stoves.

Thats why its called a non cat stove. Ya need to find someone with a CAT stove BB.

*********************** :lol: *************************

 

[begreen]

Maybe less wood consumed, but with a much milder beginning to winter. This may be a wash folks. The main advantages of the cat that I can see are longer burn times and evener output over an extended burn time.

 

[Roospike]

Maybe less wood consumed, but with a much milder beginning to winter. This may be a wash folks. The main advantages of the cat that I can see are longer burn times and evener output over an extended burn time.

Refresh my memory BG , what cat stoves have longer burn times over non cat stoves? ( not a baited question ) From what i have seen they both have stove models with real long burn times.

The blaze king is still in question but has a larger than normal fire box but was stated already that even with long burn times the output would be so low when its cold out side you would freeze so thats kinda out the door.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

im so glad i didnt get sucked into this one. I hope you boys are having a jolly good time

 

[begreen]

Longer burn times is a relative term here. I was comparing to my non-cat. Not the super PE.

 

[Gunner]

Maybe less wood consumed, but with a much milder beginning to winter

Ding, Ding, Ding Begreen wins....pack up your stoves boys, the game is over.

 

[TMonter]

You know your numbers ,Ya bought a Husqvarna 372XP , your a purity smart feller TMonter , now if you would of only bought a PE Summit we might of had to call you a GOD .

Well PE doesn't have a dealer close to me here and I got a heck of a deal on my 3100i ($1200). Plus I figured with Quadrafire less than 2 hours away if the stove ever failed warranty service would be easier....

Nobody's perfect I guess %-P

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

the 3100i rocks.

 

[DriftWood]

As far as cats go, I just feed the one the wife has. And dream of throwing the little a-hole into the non-cat stoves.

OT ; Is it the back claws or the hair balls you like so much. Lots of SPCA out there BB, careful what you say on line. A cat stove could get you into to the court house!

 

[TMonter]

the 3100i rocks.

So far it's been an excellent stove. Been using it 3 seasons now

8+ hour burn times on Tamarack, good heat output, good control over the fire. My only complaint is the dirty glass because of no airwash system and the location of the chimney outlet.

 

[Roospike]

As far as cats go, I just feed the one the wife has. And dream of throwing the little a-hole into the non-cat stoves.

OT ; Is it the back claws or the hair balls you like so much. Lots of SPCA out there BB, careful what you say on line. A cat stove could get you into to the court house!

Well is there a court stove that can get you into a cathouse ? ..................

I know , that was bad. :sick:

As for no local dealer on Pacific Energy stove , well thats where Tom comes in with the chimney sweep on line web site.

Shipping cost is there but with his low price it comes out about the same as local , actually it would of been $75. less if i had bought from chimneysweeponline then my local .

The Summit Wood Fireplace Insert
(broken link removed to http://chimneysweeponline.com/pacsumin.htm)

The Summit Classic Wood Stove
(broken link removed to http://chimneysweeponline.com/pacsumc.htm)

The Summit Wood Stove
(broken link removed to http://chimneysweeponline.com/pacsumm.htm)

 

[elkimmeg]

Hard to have a lot of dealers when the make so few stoves. Did you know in two weeks at CFM plant in VT they make more stoves than PE year total?

If one looked at manufactures stove sales in USA PE is not in the top 10. But there is only 18 manufactures

There are no dealers in MA RI VT CT NH ME NJ PA DE MD VA. WV One is listed in KY
No wonder so many members can't purchase one. No delers no dealer support and we are talking almost the eniter east coast here quite a bit of population ignored by PE

So making recomendations to people that live in these states is a bit foolish .particularly without dealer support. Maybe you PE supporters should get real

 

[Roospike]

Hard to have a lot of dealers when the make so few stoves. Did you know in two weeks at CFM plant in VT they make more stoves than PE year total?

If one looked at manufactures stove sales in USA PE is not in the top 10. But there is only 18 manufactures

There are no dealers in MA RI VT CT NH ME NJ PA DE MD VA. WV One is listed in KY
No wonder so many members can't purchase one. No delers no dealer support and we are talking almost the eniter east coast here quite a bit of population ignored by PE

So making recomendations to people that live in these states is a bit foolish .particularly without dealer support. Maybe you PE supporters should get real

Damn Elk ! Calm down. Post the information your yapping about. web link ? Something besides hot air. Show us your list buddy .

And BTW ole' Elker ...........

 

[Roospike]

Pacific Energy dealers in:

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Main
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Rhoda Island
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia
Wisconsin
and
Wyoming

There are no dealers in MA RI VT CT NH ME NJ PA DE MD VA. WV

Just to cover your list:
There is 4 in Vermont , 15 in Main , 3 in Rhoda Island , 3 in Connecticut ,
18 in New Hampshire , 5 in New Jersey , 14 in Pennsylvania , 3 in Delaware ,3 in Maryland ,
5 in Virginia , 9 in West Virginia , 11 in Kentucky , 74 in California ,41 in Washington and 20 in Nebraska .............

I think that about cover your posted list Elk . And thats just the dealers that are listed as the town and there are more then one in some , there are many more on your posted few states mentioned that are not listed.

Anymore smoke blowing Elk ? NO ............?

 

[Todd]

Maybe less wood consumed, but with a much milder beginning to winter

Ding, Ding, Ding Begreen wins....pack up your stoves boys, the game is over.

The last 2 or 3 winters have been just as mild around these parts. So I don't think it made much difference.

 

[begreen]

Yes, it's a regional thing. For us, this year was a bit colder, especially Dec/Jan. March has been normal, though we did set a record earlier in the week.

 

[mikeathens]

I'll chime in with my opinion - not gospel, by my observations: LESS WOOD USE WITH A CAT STOVE vs. a non-cat. I don't have hard numbers, but think about it: Take two stoves rated at 55,000 Btu/hr. The cat stove typically burns surface temp of 500 F, chimney connector surface 200 F. The non-cat burns surface temp 500 F and chimney surface temp of 450 F. The cat stove is emitting 1.5 g/hr, the non-cat 1.8 g/hr. Looking at the g/hr rating, I agree - not much difference in wood use, maybe a few splits per year. But look at the energy wasted to the atmosphere. BIG DIFFERENCE. Running 24 hr/day for 30 days, assuming equal gas flow rate of 5cfm (I don't know what's normal, so default 5 cfm, seems resonable):

Non-cat:

Air R = 53.3 ft lb/lb *R
Air density @ 100 F (I know I'm off a little, but humor me) = 0.0749 lb/cf

So...

(53.3 ft lb/lb *R) X (959.7 *R) X (0.0749 lb/cf) X (5 cfm) = 19156.43 ft lb/min = 24.6 Btu/min

at a 24 hr/day burn and 30 day/month, that's 1,062,720 Btu/month, or about 0.05 cord of green ash equivalent up the chimney(assume 20 MMBtu/cord green ash).

Cat:

Use the same values, except use 659.67 *R (200 F); you have 16.92 Btu/min, or 0.037 cord of green ash equivalent up the chimney per month.

Looking at a 5 month burn period at full bore, that's .25 cord for non-cat, .185 cord for cat.

about a 25% difference up the chimney.