Carbon monoxide

[JotulOwner]

Aren't most killed when sleeping ? Don't smell anything if you don't wake up. I'm not half as worried about the stove when I'm awake, it's when I sleep I own a CO detector, was the best 30 bucks for a piece of mind. Should have one in any home period, goes right up with smoke detectors in my opinion. I save when I can, but some stuff just isn't worth putting off. My family is worth more than that.... Priceless.

My2Cents

I have CO detectors all over the place. Unlike smoke detectors, I have no idea if they are working properly, so I keep more than one in each area of the house they are placed.

With all the crapola they make today, I am not putting 100% trust in any product (except my Jotul) :coolsmile:

 

[rustynut]

oilnomore, i'm thinking i've heard on this site that you do need to mount it low and the ones built in somke alarms if mounted to the ceiling are of very little good. if someone knows of this please confirm.
rn

 

[tfdchief]

oilnomore, i'm thinking i've heard on this site that you do need to mount it low and the ones built in somke alarms if mounted to the ceiling are of very little good. if someone knows of this please confirm.
rn

CO has a specific gravity of nearly the same as air, so it mixes evenly with air and where the detector is placed is not extremely important. I actually like the combos since the CO will be carried up with convection to the ceiling somewhat.

 

[JotulOwner]

oilnomore, i'm thinking i've heard on this site that you do need to mount it low and the ones built in somke alarms if mounted to the ceiling are of very little good. if someone knows of this please confirm.
rn

CO has a specific gravity of nearly the same as air, so it mixes evenly with air and where the detector is placed is not extremely important. I actually like the combos since the CO will be carried up with convection to the ceiling somewhat.

According to this site I believe that you are correct..... CO has a specific gravity slightly lighter than, but almost equal to air, and will tend to rise with warmer air:

http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/detect.htm

 

[Dakotas Dad]

My question is where do you install it, height wise, for the best operation? A guy I work with is a volunteer firefighter and he told me CO was a low lying gas and to install the CO detector 1'-2' from the floor. Anyone else done the same or heard of this? Any advice where to put it? I previously had it up with the smoke detectors.

Please don't take this wrong.. but

there WILL be directions in the package, follow those and you will be fine.

We have two, one is mounted next to the thermostat (ground floor, pure battery), and one is upstairs outside our bedroom, plugged into a wall socket (120v and battery backup).

 

[tradergordo]

I think you shoud have one on each floor, always good to have more than one anyway in case one isn't working. And definiely get one with a digital readout that also stores the peak level - that way you can easily tell when something is going wrong. The only problem with the combo units is that the smoke detectors can be good forever, while the CO detectors expire in 5-8 years.

 

[OilNoMore]

There are no directions specifically stating where to mount a CO detector with regard to height. I thought of that when I took it out of the box, you'd think they would mention to mount it high or low if it mattered. I think I will go with high as the warm air is likely to carry it upward, as per the posts revealing the density of CO.

 

[RLLD]

I bought a $30 one that plugs into a wall outlet, and has a 9 volt backup. Placed it centrally on the first floor, my wood stove is in the basement.

I think that is the best location, but I am not really sure. Should I put it upstairs instead maybe?

 

[tfdchief]

I bought a $30 one that plugs into a wall outlet, and has a 9 volt backup. Placed it centrally on the first floor, my wood stove is in the basement.

I think that is the best location, but I am not really sure. Should I put it upstairs instead maybe?

The most important location is one that will protect the bedrooms. Sleeping is when you are going to die from CO poisoning. Jurisdictions that have CO detector requirements unusually require a CO detector within 15 feet of every bedroom.

 

[Dakotas Dad]

There are no directions specifically stating where to mount a CO detector with regard to height. I thought of that when I took it out of the box, you'd think they would mention to mount it high or low if it mattered. I think I will go with high as the warm air is likely to carry it upward, as per the posts revealing the density of CO.

This is from the manual for one of mine:

Product Description
Battery Operated Carbon Monoxide Alarm, Includes A Backlight Digital Display Feature, Key Feature Adds An Advanced Level Of Protection, Includes Multiple Mounting Options Allowing Installation On A Wall Or Tabletop, Carefully Designed & Tested To Detect Carbon Monoxide Concentration In A Residential Environment.

... I guess if it's "somewhere"on a wall or a tabletop.. it's good. mine is on a wall, like I said, next to the thermostat.

 

[RLLD]

Since I am something of a freak about this topic, I may buy three more so that each bedroom has one.....

 

[tfdchief]

Since I am something of a freak about this topic, I may buy three more so that each bedroom has one.....

Cheapest insurance policy you will ever buy :exclaim: I once responded to a 911 call by a lady who was very confused and only knew that something was wrong. Dispatch sent police, fire, and ambulance. Found her unconscious at the front door.....her husband in bed, unconscious and displaying classic signs of CO poisoning. Found that a reasonably new furnace's heat exchanger had split wide open during the night.....No CO detectors. They both survived and every time they see me they tell me how many CO detectors they have now. lol....not really funny but they have them all over the house!

 

[velvetfoot]

The alarms went off this evening for a little while. I have no idea why. I just replaced all the detectors (loose connection?).
What is difficult is that with them all going off (interconnected) it's hard to tell (for me) the beep counts for whether it's co or smoke.
The oly way to tell which smoke alarm triggered is the little red lights and they weren't flashing.
The CO alarms showed no reading.
The smokes are photo/ion combos.
I hope this isn't the beginning of a false alarming problem.

 

[tfdchief]

The alarms went off this evening for a little while. I have no idea why. I just replaced all the detectors (loose connection?).
What is difficult is that with them all going off (interconnected) it's hard to tell (for me) the beep counts for whether it's co or smoke.
The oly way to tell which smoke alarm triggered is the little red lights and they weren't flashing.
The CO alarms showed no reading.
The smokes are photo/ion combos.
I hope this isn't the beginning of a false alarming problem.

This is just an observation. I have not checked to see if it is actually a standard or not, but every combo smoke/CO unit I have seen beeps 3 times for smoke and 4 times for CO. Most fire departments carry gas meters and will be glad to come out and check to see if you actually have any CO. There meters are very accurate and can detect all levels of CO. Hope that helps.

 

[velvetfoot]

When they're all beeping (I have 6 photo/ion smokes and 3 co's) I observed that it's hard to tell what's going on.

 

[ribs1]

Since I am something of a freak about this topic, I may buy three more so that each bedroom has one.....

Cheapest insurance policy you will ever buy :exclaim: I once responded to a 911 call by a lady who was very confused and only knew that something was wrong. Dispatch sent police, fire, and ambulance. Found her unconscious at the front door.....her husband in bed, unconscious and displaying classic signs of CO poisoning. Found that a reasonably new furnace's heat exchanger had split wide open during the night.....No CO detectors. They both survived and every time they see me they tell me how many CO detectors they have now. lol....not really funny but they have them all over the house!

This is very similar to what happened to me. My roommate and I had no idea why we were feeling sick for a few days. Turned out we had a cracked heat exchanger on the small furnace in our apartment. We were in college at the time and figured our sickness was due to drinking too much. We both decided to take a break from drinking for a few days but we still woke up hung over. Each day was getting worse because it was fall and each day was getting colder (so the furnace was running more), until finally we decided something must be wrong. We figured it must be some kind of gas leak as we didn't really know what CO was. We just knew that we were sick at home but got better when we left for the day for classes etc. We called the gas company and they came out with a meter and told us to get out of the apartment. My roommate decided to brush his teeth before leaving while the gas guy and I waited outside. My roommate passed out in the bathroom and so the gas guy and I dragged him out and called the fire department.
An ambulance took us to the hospital and they drew arterial blood gas. Levels were so high, the doctor decided to put us on the helicopter to the nearest hospital with a hyperbaric chamber.
We each spent 10 hours in the hyperbaric chamber. The hospital only had one, so my roommate got to go first because his arterial blood gas was higher than mine (he weighed about 160 pounds while I was 200 pounds, so the stuff was more diluted in me).

When we got a copy of the total bill it was almost $100,000. Each. Most of that was the helicopter ride with 2 doctors and a nurse on board, but the hyperbaric treatment wasn't cheap either. Luckily we both had good insurance, and also won a pretty good lawsuit against the landlord but my point is that CO detectors are a lot cheaper.

I have 3 CO detectors in my house. The only advice I have is make sure you have battery backup if you get the plugin type.

 

[Battenkiller]

Anyway, I don't want to be breathing any of the stuff, my body makes enough as it is. The Kidde Nighthawk continually monitors the CO levels and lets you know if there has been any detectable trace any time you press the button, but only emitting an alarm signal if a dangerous amount has accumulated. This is a win-win situation for me.

Dude, what did you do to yourself that your body makes CO? Are you a steampunk cyborg?

Sorry, just a little tidbit from human physiology:

The scientific history of carbon monoxide is not one of uniform gloom, however. The intense affinity of carbon monoxide for haemoglobin has allowed low concentrations to be used as a marker for measurement of the speed of blood through the lungs and the surface area of the lung available for the transfer of oxygen. This latter remains as one of the standard lung function tests. In 1951 Sjöstrand discovered that Haldane's poison gas [carbon monoxide] is a normal product of the body's metabolism. The enzyme haem oxygenase breaks down the haem from senescent red blood cells, and this reaction produces carbon monoxide and bile salts. The bile salts are excreted by the liver and the carbon monoxide released gives the blood a normal carboxyhaemoglobin level of 0.2-1.0%. This endogenous carbon monoxide was thought to be just a waste product, but more recent work by Verma has demonstrated that a type of haem oxygenase is located in specific areas in the brain, and suggested that the carbon monoxide produced acts as a neurotransmitter. The carbon monoxide activates the enzyme guanylyl cyclase, as does nitric oxide, regulating the intracellular levels of the second messenger cyclic GMP, which in turn regulates cellular activity. Other workers have demonstrated the haem oxygenase enzyme system in blood vessel walls and demonstrated that the carbon monoxide released causes vasodilation, as does nitric oxide. So far, endogenous carbon monoxide release has been suggested to have a role in the sense of smell, memory, cerebellar function (and hence the body's balance and co-ordination), control of blood hormone levels from the hypothalamus, and control of smooth muscle tone and vasodilatation.

We make all kinds of nasties in our bodies as part of normal cellular metabolism, but luckily, we have also evolved ways to neutralize or eliminate them. Whenever possible, life finds a way to make use of these substances while they're still in us. One of the other substances mentioned in the quote above is nitric oxide (NO). NO is a major automobile exhaust pollutant and one of the things you need a catalytic converter to get rid of, but it is crucial in many metabolic processes in the body, most notably in the production of new blood vessels. Part of the research I did years ago had to do with the role NO plays in enabling tumors to grow blood vessels in order to increase size. Without blood vessels of their own, cancer tumors must get all their nutrition by diffusion from the nearby tissues, and that would limit tumor size to about the size of a BB. So it's a bad chemical that does good things in the body, but then does bad things again by letting tumors grow big enough to kill you.


Bit of a hijack, but I think it's interesting and somewhat pertinent to the topic of CO. The body has mechanisms in play to deal with small amounts of CO on a continual basis. There is a threshold whereby CO is eliminated at the rate it is produced/introduced. Pass that threshold and it starts to build up to toxic levels. Cigarette smokers are a perfect example of this steady-state poisoning, with the heaviest smokers suffering the most symptoms - fatigue, headache, loss of appetite and cardiac dysfunction being common ones. One of the biggest reasons why you feel better after quitting cigarettes is the lack of CO buildup in the red blood cells and cardiac muscle myoglobin. I quit 20 years ago, and I encourage everybody to do the same at once. There are no CO detectors sounding an alarm in your body. The symptoms are subtle and you get used to them over time, but the damage goes on.

 

[tfdchief]

Since I am something of a freak about this topic, I may buy three more so that each bedroom has one.....

Cheapest insurance policy you will ever buy :exclaim: I once responded to a 911 call by a lady who was very confused and only knew that something was wrong. Dispatch sent police, fire, and ambulance. Found her unconscious at the front door.....her husband in bed, unconscious and displaying classic signs of CO poisoning. Found that a reasonably new furnace's heat exchanger had split wide open during the night.....No CO detectors. They both survived and every time they see me they tell me how many CO detectors they have now. lol....not really funny but they have them all over the house!

This is very similar to what happened to me. My roommate and I had no idea why we were feeling sick for a few days. Turned out we had a cracked heat exchanger on the small furnace in our apartment. We were in college at the time and figured our sickness was due to drinking too much. We both decided to take a break from drinking for a few days but we still woke up hung over. Each day was getting worse because it was fall and each day was getting colder (so the furnace was running more), until finally we decided something must be wrong. We figured it must be some kind of gas leak as we didn't really know what CO was. We just knew that we were sick at home but got better when we left for the day for classes etc. We called the gas company and they came out with a meter and told us to get out of the apartment. My roommate decided to brush his teeth before leaving while the gas guy and I waited outside. My roommate passed out in the bathroom and so the gas guy and I dragged him out and called the fire department.
An ambulance took us to the hospital and they drew arterial blood gas. Levels were so high, the doctor decided to put us on the helicopter to the nearest hospital with a hyperbaric chamber.
We each spent 10 hours in the hyperbaric chamber. The hospital only had one, so my roommate got to go first because his arterial blood gas was higher than mine (he weighed about 160 pounds while I was 200 pounds, so the stuff was more diluted in me).

When we got a copy of the total bill it was almost $100,000. Each. Most of that was the helicopter ride with 2 doctors and a nurse on board, but the hyperbaric treatment wasn't cheap either. Luckily we both had good insurance, and also won a pretty good lawsuit against the landlord but my point is that CO detectors are a lot cheaper.

I have 3 CO detectors in my house. The only advice I have is make sure you have battery backup if you get the plugin type.

Wow! Great story....glad you are OK.

 

[tfdchief]

Battenkiller, That is some great stuff. Did not know some of that. :ahhh:

 

[woodgeek]

Batten--- very cool. I will add it to my list of stuff our bodies make--my favorite being acetone.

 

[killick]

Batten,thanks for the info.You are correct 22 ppm long term could have some consequences.To be truthful the CO alarm is new and I didn't reset it after installing so that has been done and I will be keeping a close eye on the levels.
Thanks again;

Earl

 

[firefighterjake]

Should I get a CO detector: Yes . . . CO can be produced from many sources of carbon-based fuel, including woodstoves and pelletstoves. While I have seen far more CO poisonings from faulty furnaces (oil and gas) and folks brining gasoline powered generators inside a home, it is possible to get CO from a woodstove with a bad draft or from coals as mentioned (which is why I feel it is not a good idea to leave coals inside the home once they are outside of a woodstove.)

What type should I get: There are a lot of makes and models out there. First Alert and Kidde/Nighthawk are some of the more well known brands. There are battery-powered units, electric powered units and dual powered units . . . there are units with digital displays . . . and other features. The most important thing to look for is that your make/model has been tested by UL or Factory Mutual . . . to meet the standards established by the industry. Barring that, I prefer dual-powered units since a lot of the CO calls I see are during prolonged periods of power loss when folks are firing up their generators inside their attached garage, on the enclosed porch, etc.

Is CO odor-less: Yes . . . but as mentioned often CO is found with other substances which are noxious . . . but not always. My brother had a faulty propane furnace that was pumping CO into his house. Couldn't smell it . . . but it was there . . . according to his CO detector and the propane company which came out after he called them.

Are CO detectors affordable: Yup . . . they've come down a lot in price. When I first started doing this job they sold for $40-$60 . . . today some of the cheaper models well for $15-$25. In my own opinion, I wouldn't live in a house without one.

Location: As mentioned the actual location in the room doesn't matter . . . up high, down low, mid-level. CO tends to rise when heated, but as it reaches room temp pretty quickly moves through at all levels. As to a location in the home . . . if you buy just one stick it outside your bedrooms. If you have the money to buy additional models stick it close to (but not too close) to potential CO sources (i.e. heating equipment, gas range, etc.)

Life expectancy: Just like smoke detectors which have a life expectancy (10 years), CO detectors have a life expectancy that ranges from 3-7 years depending on the brand. Last I knew the NFPA was recommending replacing CO detectors every 5-7 years.

 

[Dakotas Dad]

how can i test my digital CO detector?

good question.. my red neck self says go hold it behind the exhaust of my truck for a bit... maybe the Mustang.. no cat converters..

but don't hold my head down there to listen for the be e p i n g . . zzzzzZzzz...

 

[dusty_]

Thanks for the information on CO in our bodies Battenkiller. Sooo interesting!