Can't decide what stove?

[ansehnlich1]

The masons just finished the hearth. It's brick, eight inches high off the floor, 66 inches from side to side and 44 inches front to back, with brick running up the back wall about 80 inches high, 6 inch thimble into a 7 inch interior diameter square flue. I'm thinking of a Harman Oakwood, or a Hearthstone Phoenix, or a Jotul Oslo, though the Oslo manual says it needs a hearth pad 50.5 inches deep. I like the build quality of the Jotul, and there's a dealer nearby. Why's the Oslo have such a deep hearth pad requirement? Is there any leeway on this?

I like the morso 3610 too, though my wife has not fallen in love with it, if you know what I mean.

Still.....can't decide what stove!

 

[BrotherBart]

The masons just finished the hearth. It's brick, eight inches high off the floor, 66 inches from side to side and 44 inches front to back, with brick running up the back wall about 80 inches high, 6 inch thimble into a 7 inch interior diameter square flue. I'm thinking of a Harman Oakwood, or a Hearthstone Phoenix, or a Jotul Oslo, though the Oslo manual says it needs a hearth pad 50.5 inches deep. I like the build quality of the Jotul, and there's a dealer nearby. Why's the Oslo have such a deep hearth pad requirement? Is there any leeway on this?

I like the morso 3610 too, though my wife has not fallen in love with it, if you know what I mean.

Still.....can't decide what stove!

Call Jotul and ask them if that counts when the sucker is eight inches in the air. Raised hearths should count in that equation.

 

[coldinnj]

As stated earlier... If you are experienced with coal. That is the way to go. Longer burning, more consistent heat, More heat output (depending on model of course). Easier on chimney cleanings, no chimney fires. Cheapest heating source. The main reason, I feel, that many don't use coal instead of wood is the learning curve with coal. Once you understand how to use it, I think it is much better. There are several good coal burning stoves that are made in the USA also.

 

[G-rott]

The masons just finished the hearth. It's brick, eight inches high off the floor, 66 inches from side to side and 44 inches front to back, with brick running up the back wall about 80 inches high, 6 inch thimble into a 7 inch interior diameter square flue. I'm thinking of a Harman Oakwood, or a Hearthstone Phoenix, or a Jotul Oslo, though the Oslo manual says it needs a hearth pad 50.5 inches deep. I like the build quality of the Jotul, and there's a dealer nearby. Why's the Oslo have such a deep hearth pad requirement? Is there any leeway on this?

I like the morso 3610 too, though my wife has not fallen in love with it, if you know what I mean.

Still.....can't decide what stove!

I have the smaller Morso 2110, and my father burns a Harman Oakwood. His stove would cook me out of my house, it's a fantastic heater. Im sure the 3610 would be simmilar, preformance wise. The 2110 is just about right for me keeps the whole house 72-75 whith the rooms farthest frome the stove a coupla' degrees cooler. Good luck with your stove shopping.

There is little leeway on hearth dimentions unless you have no combustables in the hearth area and can set the stove closer to the rear wall than the clearances suggest.

Does the fact that your hearth is in indicate the house is insulated and drywalled/plastered/paneled?

Garett

 

[ansehnlich1]

Our home is not yet insulated or drywalled, however, the back of the hearth is brick and is insulated behind that. No combustibles, all brick.

I did like coal, though found it to create a fine black dust over everything, and am fairly certain my wife is not interested in burning it. I had a baker coal stove, burned nut coal in it. My brother took the baker and is using it in his home now.

I'm confused about how the harman oakwood at 42k btu claims to heat 2000 sq. ft. and the hearthstone pheonix claims to heat the same with 60k btu, and the jotul oslo claims to heat the same 2000 sq. ft. with 70k btu, the lopi leyden with 73k btu claims the same 2000 sq. ft........don't make sense to me.

thanks for your input friends, I appreciate it for sure!

 

[elkimmeg]

There are two ways to compare stoves the firebox size and the way it delivers heat.

Firebox size 2.5 cu ft of wood delivers the same amount of BTUs regardless what stove it is placed in. The wood its self 2.5 will deliver xxx amounts of BTUs.


The difference is how much of the BTUs is esxracted and delivered to the heating space. The more effecient the stove the more BTUs dlivered to the living space.
Another factor is larger fireboxes deliver more BTUs.

Manufactures play games with BTUs and space they heat. While on tour ar VC the Defiant has been tested for beyond 125,000 Btus but only for a short time. Some manufactures would post the 125,000 btus but VC post there BTU output to reflect real world expectations. What good is a high BTu rating when one has to load their stove every hour and burn it to the max to obtain that?. My corvette will do 210 mph. Realistically during an 8 hour burn 50,000 buts per hour is more realistic it is 60% of that.

Given the fire box size ,a stove at 63% effecienccy will not extract the same heat as one the can burn 82% given equal size. The more effecient, the more heat to the living space, and less exiting up the chimney. It is possible that a stove 2.5 firebox size, that is very effecient , can deliver more heat than a less effecient stove with a 3.0 fire box size.

My 71 LT1 Vette 350 motor will blow the doors off of a 1971 454 vette motor.

You want to measure fire box size and effeciency and not get caught up into manufacture claims

 

[G-rott]

In your hearth you have to remember the framing is still combustable behind the brick, remember this when doing clearance calculations.

Second and most important to me is your insulation package. Please tell me your contractor is having cellulose sprayed in or dense packed, or better yet your going to spray in foam insulation....

I'm an insulation contractor. I fight all r-values are equal battle on a daily basis. FG in the real word is a poor insulator in almost all conditions.

Spend some time and/or money now and you can enjoy the comfort of your new home for years. You need an insulation product that will stop air movement and infiltration.

No mater what the advertising says FG can't and will not stop the air even with house wrap. FG is big business and controls the market, both price and evaluation methods.

If in place whole house testing ever gets implemented FG will need upto 40% higher r-value to match the performanc of the air impermiable insulations on the market.

If you want more information check out oakridge labs and building science dot com.

Garett

edit for spelling

 

[elkimmeg]

I dispute some of G-rott arguements against fiberglass insulation .The poly industry the R value in a 2/4 wall is factoring 4" no 2/4 is 4" today but 3.5"
Did he tell the poly fill also honey combs and leaves voids and not a true unifirm dept. What about the posineous deadly gasses the poly emits in the event of a fire/
He is concerned about clearaNCES TO COMBUSTIABLES IN A HAZZARDEOUS LOCATION BUT RECOMENTS POLY TO FILL THE SPACE? SORRRY HIT CAPS key

in my town there is an energy star developememt 100 homes all insulated with fiberglass all door blatter tested to energy star infiltration standards all passed
The problem with fiberglass is in the installation there are too many hack jobs where a many bats are not streeched and stapled correctly all wire hloes pipe holes should be draft stopped
It can be done, G-rott is also correct to mention the lobby influence the fiberglass industry has and they do influence code

Diplacido development corporation

(broken link removed to http://www.sunpower.org/press/2003wrentham.htm)

 

[Webwidow]

I like the build quality of the Jotul, and there’s a dealer nearby.

When I had a store I would tell my customers that the dealer where they bought the stove from is as important as the stove.
My thoughts:
Soapstone stoves are beautiful and heat well, however they take along time to heat up from a cold start.
Encore Cat. took awhile to get cooking as well.
Jotuls burn well and have beautiful castings(fit and finish)
We sold all the above brands, Hearthstone, VC, Jotul and back in the day Woodstock Soapstone. All are great stoves with good companies behind them. But I always thought that the VC encore cat had too many moving parts,we had a wall of VC parts, not so for other stoves.
I am not familiar with the new encore

BTW:I'm with your wife, aesthetic do count. This will be the focal point in your new home, make it pretty and functional. A stove is like buying a price of furniture but more so. And buy from a dealer whom you trust.

 

[Gooserider]

I won't argue either way on the fiberglass issue, I know that FG is good if done right, but I also know that more often than not it isn't since it is easier to do it hacked than not... The foams and such also have their own issues. Suspect that in every case the installer counts for more than the technology.

However, I would say that those PV setups your article mentions don't seem to me like they add up... All that I've seen on PV is that the cells have a limited lifespan, approx 10 years or so. The article says the homeowner will save $150-300/yr, on a system that increases his home cost $3,000-5,000 (plus what it costs the taxpayers....) My math may not be the best, but that still looks to me like a pretty bad deal - spending $20 to save $10 doesn't strike me as a bargain no matter how high the technology is, or how much the state is trying to repeal the laws of economics...

Gooserider

ELK: in my town there is an energy star developememt 100 homes all insulated with fiberglass all door blatter tested to energy star infiltration standards all passed
The problem with fiberglass is in the installation there are too many hack jobs where a many bats are not streeched and stapled correctly all wire hloes pipe holes should be draft stopped
It can be done, G-rott is also correct to mention the lobby influence the fiberglass industry has and they do influence code

Diplacido development corporation

(broken link removed to http://www.sunpower.org/press/2003wrentham.htm)

ELK'S REFERENCE: The PV system on the Wrentham model home is called a 1.3 kilowatt solar electric system. The 12 solar panels on the home’s roof, manufactured by Evergreen Solar Inc., are expected to generate 1,250 kWh per year, based on New England’s climate. The 1.3 kW system is expected to save homeowners more than $150 per year on energy costs (based on a projected 10-year average utility rate of 14 cents per kWh.) DiPlacido is also offering a 2.6 kW solar electric system, expected to generate 2,500 kWh per year, saving homeowners more than $300 per year on electricity costs. Up to 25 homes at Wampanoag Estates will feature these PV systems.

According to CSG, the PV systems will cost homeowners an extra $3,000 to $5,000 after MTC and state tax incentives (without these rebates, a typical home PV system can cost more than $15,000). John Livermore, Sun Power For New Homes program manager from CSG, said, "The ability to integrate PV installation into the home at the time of construction is extremely cost-effective. By integrating solar up front, the extra cost can be rolled into the home mortgage."

 

[G-rott]

[quote author="elkimmeg" date="1167725699"]I dispute some of G-rott arguements against fiberglass insulation .The poly industry the R value in a 2/4 wall is factoring 4" no 2/4 is 4" today but 3.5"

Elk, I didn't factor any R-values. There are good and bad in all industries please don't lump all polyurathane spray foams into one group. I only know od TWO who do major code complance testing. I install one of these products.

Did he tell the poly fill also honey combs and leaves voids and not a true unifirm dept.

Properly installed foam will have no honeycomb/voids. I'm not sure what an unifirm dept. is?

What about the posineous deadly gasses the poly emits in the event of a fire/

Installed per national building code foam insulation products are covered by thermal/fire/or ignition barriers unless they have been tested and passed in another application.

He is concerned about clearaNCES TO COMBUSTIABLES IN A HAZZARDEOUS LOCATION BUT RECOMENTS POLY TO FILL THE SPACE? SORRRY HIT CAPS key

Again if installed properly this is not a concern with the proper clearances and barriers.


in my town there is an energy star developememt 100 homes all insulated with fiberglass all door blatter tested to energy star infiltration standards all passed


Is it possible to be energy star rated with FG, Yes. Is it easy or common, NO. (caps on pourpose). Is it eaiser to get energy star, HERS, or LEEDs rated with Cellulose or Spray Foam, YES.

The problem with fiberglass is in the installation there are too many hack jobs where a many bats are not streeched and stapled correctly all wire hloes pipe holes should be draft stopped
It can be done, G-rott is also correct to mention the lobby influence the fiberglass industry has and they do influence code

Hack jobs are a problem throughout our industry...they are not the only problem, the inflexability and air filtering quality of the main insulating material relied upon are also major factor.

Framing techniques that form blind corners and pockets that are hard to reach are also concerns. Utilizing products (cellulose and Spray Foam) that help to insure all areas are insulated and sealed help us to save energy/money in the long run.



Sorry for he Hijack of your thread...Good luck deciding on a stove.

A heat loss calculation will help with sizing also.

Garett

 

[elkimmeg]

see discussion can be had without negativity both sides pointing out points. From the sounds of G-rott description of his work ethnic, he would be one of the contractors
I would have his Tell ## in my phone book. There happens to be a similar Fiberglass insulation contractor, where he has great professionalism in this work. He is in my phone book and always the first called. I should take my digital camera with me, to share the correct way to install fiberglass insulation.

 

[Hogwildz]

see discussion can be had without negativity both sides pointing out points. From the sounds of G-rott description of his work ethnic, he would be one of the contractors
I would have his Tell ## in my phone book. There happens to be a similar Fiberglass insulation contractor, where he has great professionalism in this work. He is in my phone book and always the first called. I should take my digital camera with me, to share the correct way to install fiberglass insulation.

Please do take some photos of correct intallation. I will be doing that after I run the ductwork. I am going F/g in the walls & blown in the attic.

 

[G-rott]

Ok Hogwildz,
One more before bed for me. You are only going to do this once... Get the most out of your time and money.

Dense Pack Cellulose can be done by a skilled DIY'er. The price is comparable to FG for materials, it will take you longer. But you can make up the time in your attic.

There are two options, blowing behind fabric then installing DW and blowing after DW.

The trick (if there is one) is filling each stud bay with at least 2.5 lbs per cubic foot of volume. When you reach this density the cellulose will NOT settle. It's max natural density is 2.1 to 2.3 lbs / cu ft.

When installing dense pack you are increasing the density with the blower.

Garett

 

[Gooserider]

Very off topic, but since you are in the business G-Rott (others welcome too...) I thought I'd ask... I spent the holidays at the GF's parents house down in CT. It is a semi ranch style, built to a design by one of the guys that later became DeckHaus. I'm guessing early 60's. I was helping her father put down some plywood flooring in the attic to enable them to store stuff better. Looking around I was shocked to see that their "insulation" consisted of 4" batts laying in the 2X6 joist spaces, said batts being in poor condition with large gaps between them and the boards, big spaces around the lights, etc.

I told them that it was one of the worst cases of insulation I'd ever seen, and was very much not adequate and costing them lots of money in wasted heat.

The roof is fairly gentle pitch, and the attic under it has a central section that is floored about 8' wide and maybe 4-5' high in the center, with about a 10' wide area on each side that slopes down lower. There are alot of truss uprights but the space is otherwise open. I suggested as a fairly low cost measure that they should blow a foot or so of loose blow in cellulose in the spaces that aren't covered by the flooring. Am I doing the right thing, or is there a better low cost solution? (Practicality says the cost needs to be low enough for a 3-5 year savings payback as it is doubtful at their age how long they will be able to stay in the house...)

Gooserider

 

[ansehnlich1]

I appreciate all the input into home construction/insulation. We are using a combination of insulation in our home, some blown in, some fiberglass, no sprayed in foam other than typical applications around doors/windows etc.

You folks were busy posting quite a bit last night whilst I slept

thanks again all,

Brad